gryfndor_godess | Flipping a Shit (Happily)

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Flipping a Shit (Happily)

OH MY GOD. JUST READ THE COMIC AND AM HAPPILY FLIPPING A SHIT BECAUSE IT IS PERFECT AND BEAUTIFUL, AND THE LAST TWO PAGES, ALDKFJALKDJFLADJFLAJDFK.

Like, I don't even feel the need to fic this issue because the Spuffy (and the Buffy & Dawn, Buffy & Robin, Nikki & Crowley, Spike & Dowling, EVERYTHING ELSE) already makes me so happy! (Still writing my future!domestic-Spuffy!Andrew-baby-daddy!baby!fic, though- it's just not based around this issue.)

ETA: Although there's definitely a drabble or ficlet begging to be written with Buffy asking, "What did you need to tell me?"

Initial reactions, flailing, and word vomit below the cut:

-Did anyone else notice on the 11th page how upset she looks when she says "I guess it's obvious what I should do" and then how hopeful she looks when Robin says "I don't think it is"? SHE WANTS THE BABY.

-SPIKE AND DOWLING ARE SO GREAT TOGETHER! I WOULD TOTES BE OKAY IF BUFFY AND SPIKE HAD A THREESOME WITH HIM.

-BUFFY AND DAWN!!!

-Robin was really great! Even though I sympathize with him in S7, I don't really like him that much, but I really like him here, and I love that he recognizes how his mother and Buffy are different and would approach child-rearing differently.

-I really liked Nikki and Crowley's story!! I agree with Mari's Tumblr reaction, Crowley definitely loved her.

-Would Giles have reacted the same way as Crowley (only obviously out of parental love)? I think he would have.

-BUFFY WANTS SPIKE TO BE HER BABY!DADDY!! ASLDKFJALDFJLADKJFLAKDJFLAKDJFLADJF.

-My heart breaks for Buffy at the end, and I LOVE that she recognizes and admits that the reasons she's not ready to have a baby are because of her ordinary human circumstances- because it means someday down the line, if she felt more stable in her job, home, etc., she could have a baby regardless of the slaying. Obviously mileage varies in fan opinion of Buffy-as-mother, but personally I think she'd be really good at it, and I've never gotten the impression that Buffy would dislike having kids (worry about it because of slaying? Sure, definitely, but not want kids on principle? No; I don't see that at all), so the fact that this issue basically affirms the idea that Buffy is open to the idea of being a mother MAKES ME REALLY HAPPY.

-Also, the ending, SPUFFY!!!!! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH MY HEART ALFJALKFDJLKDJFLASJFLDKASJF.

-As for whether or not she'll actually go through with an abortion, I really want Buffy to have a baby (*with Spike as biological or nonbiological-baby-daddy, obvs*), but I'd also be really pleased with such a pro-choice plot, and honestly, I don't want Joss writing a baby plot. He doesn't deserve any trust in that regard after all the abominable pregnancy plots on AtS. The interviews I've read indicate that she will go through with an abortion, but I can't really see that happening when Joss could cause her equal or so much more pain by having her miscarry or have to give up the baby for adoption later in the season. :/

-Calling it now, it's a girl. Or not really calling it, I suppose, because I don't have proof to back it up, but if it's a boy I will be extremely put out because this is Buffy, feminist icon, and she should have a daughter. Also, imagine Spike being completely wrapped around another Summers woman's finger. HE WOULD SPOIL THAT BABY SO ROTTEN AND BE ADORABLY OVERPROTECTIVE AND CLICHED.

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Hee! I love your reaction post.

I'm so glad. :)

It actually has me beyond worried.

ME, TOO. Part of me worries that there will be some huge, relationship-ending (insofar as any of the ships ever actually "end" in the Buffyverse) event later in the season, a la the Bangel spacefrak, but I honestly can't imagine what in-character trauma Joss could come up with; Buffy and Spike are just too much a part of each other now for any traitorous, hurtful event like that to be remotely realistic (*knocks on wood*; except for maybe if he knowingly slept with her while she was drunk? But calling that IC would be an extremely tenuous claim). So then part of me worries that Joss will kill Spike off b/c hey, that's the other way to end a relationship, but I don't think DH would let him do that b/c Spike is such a moneymaker and draw to the fans; I know I'd stop reading the comics if he were killed.

So now, after reading an interview with Chambliss, I'm wondering if Spike and Buffy's love will merely stay "unrequited" because they're both too stupid to realize their love is mutual- that would be almost as bad as anything else. Except I don't think such obtuseness is IC, either. *Sigh* It's all annoyingly worrisome.

Then again, maybe Joss thinks that this issue was actually painful for Spuffies b/c Spike was so close to confessing and then didn't...whereas, yeah, that might disappoint us a little, but the obvious trust and love and "I was ready to ask you to run away with me" are JUST as good, if not better. God knows what goes on in Joss's mind...

This is the beginning of Spuffy totally getting its dues. I believe. I really, really do.

FINGERS CROSSED. :D

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If it gets revealed that Spike slept with Buffy at the party then I will be beyond pissed off.

I'd be unbelievably furious and offended if they had him rape her while he was sober and she was too drunk to consent, and if they were both drunk and it was consensual, I'd still be annoyed because how dare they do something like that off-page after so many years of waiting?? (I mean, I guess they could give us flashbacks, but STILL).

Because I just can't envision a situation where he willingly leaves her again, not after everything that's happened.

Ugh, yeah. I hadn't considered them simply moving him a different title (I heard the same rumors that they considered it), but that would be a relationship-ender, too. The implied apathy between Buffy and Spike, that they could finally part ways, would be almost worse than a traumatic event.

Their feelings. They are obvious. ;)

Seriously. I don't know why Chambliss called them unrequited in the first place, because they clearly are requited...the characters just don't know it; there's a difference.

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Yeah, it was in a recent interview (with Joss, too, and he said even worse things), and I should do the same thing and stop reading them. They just raise my blood pressure and make me angst for a whole month while waiting for the next issue.

SHE WANTS THE BABY

Didn't notice that . . . very good eye. (Then again, I was reading it at double speed at midnight after a long day, so the only extraordinary thing I noticed was Nikki's giant Marvin Gaye poster).

SPIKE AND DOWLING ARE SO GREAT TOGETHER! I WOULD TOTES BE OKAY IF BUFFY AND SPIKE HAD A THREESOME WITH HIM.

I'm loving all the happy Dowling feels everyone's having! They can have a threesome in the treehouse Mari wants Dowling, Koh and Andrew to build!

I love that he recognizes how his mother and Buffy are different and would approach child-rearing differently.

Yes. Robin was all together more likable here than he was in the series. He takes Buffy seriously, and offers good advice.

Would Giles have reacted the same way as Crowley (only obviously out of parental love)? I think he would have.

I can't help but think that Giles or her mom were the first people she would have wanted to talk to in this situation. Poor Buffy! No parental figures! I say we get Alaric from The Vampire Diaries and move him to San Francisco!

My heart breaks for Buffy at the end, and I LOVE that she recognizes and admits that the reasons she's not ready to have a baby are because of her ordinary human circumstances- because it means someday down the line, if she felt more stable in her job, home, etc., she could have a baby regardless of the slaying. Obviously mileage varies in fan opinion of Buffy-as-mother, but personally I think she'd be really good at it, and I've never gotten the impression that Buffy would dislike having kids (worry about it because of slaying? Sure, definitely, but not want kids on principle? No; I don't see that at all), so the fact that this issue basically affirms the idea that Buffy is open to the idea of being a mother MAKES ME REALLY HAPPY.

That's very true. It's the Buffy part that is worried about raising a baby, not the slayer. And good point about her wanting children someday down the line - it's a future she couldn't dream of earlier in her life, and now the reality that she has choices now has her in the face.

I do want Buffy to have the baby because of DADDY SPIKE and BABY FIC, but it would be a bold choice to have her go through with the abortion. However, some poster on Buffyforums mentioned that if Buffy regrets her decision and isn't confident and happy after the abortion, women's groups are going to crucify Joss for showing abortion in a negative light. So I don't think the abortion will actually happen. I don't know if it's circumstance or Buffy herself that will decide against it, but somehow the abortion won't happen.

THOSE LAST PAGES THOUGH. I said last night that the comics make it SO DAMN EASY to be a Spike fan, and this scene encapsulates WHY we ship Spuffy - the compassion, understanding, and acceptance that Buffy gets from nowhere else.

And I think if they have the baby, it will be a girl, too.

He takes Buffy seriously, and offers good advice.

It was really nice to see their affability! They seemed so cold and remote toward each other by the end of S7 (which totally made sense in that context, of course, but it's nice to see that they can move past it, too).

I can't help but think that Giles or her mom were the first people she would have wanted to talk to in this situation.

Definitely her mom, but I'd probably put Dawn and maybe Spike before Giles (post S7, at least; I didn't read S8 and don't know much about the Buffy & Giles relationship, although the fact that he left everything to Faith doesn't give me any confidence). Ergh, it's still so frustrating to think that he's dead. I mean, not that I was a particular fan of his anymore, but I want him to be there for Buffy! Which is actually how I think about "The Body," too; I don't care about Joyce herself so much as I care about Buffy losing her mother.

Alaric? With Buffy? But as a parental figure? Hmm. Maybe I haven't seen enough of TVD, b/c I definitely see that particular duo as more with the sexy times. Mmm, mental images of naked!Alaric...

women's groups are going to crucify Joss for showing abortion in a negative light.

Even though I would agree with that particular sentiment, I hate how politicized this is going to become; no matter which way the decision goes, some group or other will get up in arms, and the mainstream media will get its grubby paws all over it, and people who are neither BtVS fans nor comics fans will use it for their soapbox. :(

I don't know if it's circumstance or Buffy herself that will decide against it, but somehow the abortion won't happen.

I agree, especially in light of the recent Joss + Chambliss review that says "The whole thing isn’t going to be, well, normal." What else can that mean but that it's somehow a mystical pregnancy and she can't abort. UGH.

the comics make it SO DAMN EASY to be a Spike fan, and this scene encapsulates WHY we ship Spuffy - the compassion, understanding, and acceptance that Buffy gets from nowhere else.

YES. Okay, this is petty of me, but I love how if a BtVS virgin started reading S9 right now and you mentioned the name Angel, they wouldn't know who the eff you were talking about and would be like, "Duh, Spike's her soulmate. Wait, are you saying Buffy's bi? She was with a girl named Angel?" :D

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I had very little time for Joyce, she was just Buffy's annoying mother, but now when I rewatch the series I love her so much.

My big issue with Joyce is "Becoming II" when she tells her daughter not to come home. That's pretty much unforgivable in my book, and I have a hard time respecting her anytime else. I've mellowed a lot over the years and now when I rewatch I try to look at situations from the maligned characters' POV, so I'd probably appreciate her more on a second run-through. I just don't care to try to find reasons to like her.

What a disservice to the characters and the story at large!

Yup yup yup. I'm trying to be optimistic and give Joss the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard because (a) the waiting period between issues is so long and (b) after what he did with pregnancy on AtS, I just don't think he deserves the benefit of the doubt!

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So I don't blame her for reacting badly and in an over the top manner (on very little notice); which she really regretted after as we saw in Anne.

And that's why I can kind of see myself forgiving her and overlooking it if I watched the early seasons again (goodness knows I love other characters for far worse crimes!), but I don't think I could ever love her or call her a great mother the way some fans do; relative to mothers I've known in real life and other mothers in fiction, I just don't think she's a shining example of one.

But, man, have you seen Joyce smashing the hell out of that zombie with a baseball bat in Dead Man's Party? How can you not respect her after that? ;)

Meh, I've never rewatched that episode because of how the characters jump all over Buffy. If I respect her for anything, it's definitely with her axe in "School Hard." That's awesome.

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(But if you ever can bring yourself to rewatch Dead Man's Party look out for that scene!) ;)

I'll make sure to. :)

Can't think past joining you in your collective flail.

:D Yesterday we Spuffy fans were quite fortunate.

I don't read the comics, but I keep up with whats happening in them through my flist, and I am all kinds of okay with everything that apparently went down in #6. :D

Although the idea of Joss handling a pregnancy storyline strikes fear in my heart. He lost all baby!fic privileges back on AtS. No babies for Joss.

Apologies in advance if you're told this kind of thing often and it bugs you, but this issue might be worth reading alone, even if you never read any of the other comics. 99% of it is wonderful, not just the Spuffy parts, and of course the Spuffy parts are just- just- laksfjlakjflakjdflajdflkajf.

YES HE DID LOSE ALL PRIVILEGES. UGH.

Lol. I've thought about picking up issues here and there, but I never end up doing it. I don't really have a problem with the BtVS comics specifically (well sometimes I have problems with things they do, but not as a whole). But I've never been able to get into graphic novels as a medium. I find them hard to read, mostly because the pictures are right there and turning a page means I can see what's coming by the art on the next page... Idek. If I was ever going to read a series, it would be BtVS.

But I've never been able to get into graphic novels as a medium.

Me neither! I mean, they're neat and I have nothing against them, but there are way too many pictures and not enough words for me. I've read Persepolis and its sequel for a class (those are really good and enlightening), and in high school I tried Runaways because I'd heard such good things about it, but that's it (other than BtVS, of course). I haven't even touched the really famous ones like Sandman.

"they're neat and I have nothing against them, but there are way too many pictures and not enough words for me." Exactly! And it's so easy to see what's going to happen a few panels over when you turn a page!

I believe I've heard that if you buy comics online you can look through them panel by panel instead of page by page, which not only makes them seem longer but also solves that problem of seeing ahead. Of course, that doesn't make much of a difference for someone who doesn't care for the medium to begin with, but it is an interesting example of how technology is changing the way we consume fiction. I hadn't thought before about how the e-reader revolution, etc. would affect comics.

Oh really? I might look into that. Tbh, being able to see ahead is one of my biggest blocks in getting into comics. I'm still not crazy about the medium but there are some graphic novels with interesting plots, plus S8/S9 of Buffy, that I would be willing to try if I could look at them page by page.

Definitely check around before buying anything because I could be wrong. I know Mari/coalitiongirl buys them online if you wanted to ask her.

If I buy any, it'll have to wait until I have more money, lol. I'd like to pretend that I could get one or two issues and stop, but I have very limited self-control....

I'll poke around, though, before committing myself to anything. Thanks for the info!

You're welcome! :)

The pure amount of flail in this post made me want to read the issue. So I did. It feels really strange coming into the comics at this point - especially when I swore I never would - but yeah.... I totally get the flailing :)

Aaahhh, I'm so glad my flailing could inspire you to read it! Some of my offline Spuffy friends have expressed interest in reading it, too, even though they've never read any of the comics. I think it was just that good of an issue.

I can't really write much now but just wanted to mention YES YES YES to all of this (and S/B/D threesome is something I'm super okay with) and the whole baby turmoil is barely beginning but I can see it as powerful either way no matter what happens. It's a pro-choice story no matter how it ends, because Buffy's addressing the fact that her choice exists, and that's what it means, not actually getting an abortion.

YES CLICHE SPIKE BUFFY'S BABY IS WAY CUTER THAN BUG LARVAE ANYWAY.

I'm in the same place as you when it comes to fic (though I'd like to write the alternate decision now that I've already written Buffy choosing to abort the baby). I think I had a ficlet bunny last night? But I've completely forgotten it now.

It's a pro-choice story no matter how it ends

It is a theoretically pro-choice story even if Buffy keeps the baby (I say theoretically, b/c I still think Joss is going to pull something weird so that she *has* to keep it, in which case that's not pro-choice, that's, that's like what he did to Cordelia over and over, and it's gross; it's this quote from that interview: "The whole thing isn’t going to be, well, normal. There’s not going to be a lot of “normal” going on, but hopefully there’s a certain amount of “relatable"; WTF does he mean it's not going to be normal? Is he telling us outright the pregnancy is going to be mystical?), but I'm worried about how politics will screw everything up. If she gets rid of the baby, pro-lifers will be calling for Joss's head (which, let's face it, would probably be on their to-do list at some point anyway), and if she keeps the baby, even by choice, pro-choicers will call it a cop-out. No matter how it goes, I don't see how it won't be politicized and nitpicked by the mainstream media, and I DON'T want our beloved Buffy and S9 torn apart by people who have no connection to the character or story and just want to use it for their soapbox. :/

Ugh I read that too and I'm so terrified that he's really going the Darla/Cordelia route again. Which is about as pro-life as it gets, when you think about it- a woman stripped of her agency and forced to allow something to use her body despite express wishes to the contrary.

And same worries about the politics of it- now that they've made this such a huge issue, they're going to have to do an incredible job to appease the pro-choice media now lauding Joss.

This gives me some hope, though: "And obviously there will be complications to the whole storyline that could only happen in the Buffyverse. But it’s not about what happens, it’s about that moment of decision, and just articulating what so many people are not saying, but so many are thinking."

I mean, I want Buffy to want this baby (though if she doesn't, I don't want her to have it regardless). I want the pregnancy plotline, I want a conveniently drawn baby who only gets in the way of the story when it's necessary, etc etc. And I'm kind of hopeful that the entire next issue is lengthy enough that they can address any about-face Buffy has sensitively. (And now I'm wondering if the zompire battle we know is coming is going to get in the way of her plans to abort, and if the loss of her hand might somehow tie into all this? It's possible, right?)

Either way, I think I'll be satisfied if it's done as well as this issue was.

Which is about as pro-life as it gets, when you think about it- a woman stripped of her agency and forced to allow something to use her body despite express wishes to the contrary.

Yup, yup, yup. That's why I don't think Joss deserves the right to write a pregnancy story. He's been nothing but misogynistic concerning them in the past.

I mean, I want Buffy to want this baby (though if she doesn't, I don't want her to have it regardless). I want the pregnancy plotline, I want a conveniently drawn baby who only gets in the way of the story when it's necessary, etc etc.

SAME. :D

And I'm kind of hopeful that the entire next issue is lengthy enough that they can address any about-face Buffy has sensitively.

I'm crossing my fingers because this kind of situation needs to be handled carefully. I'm still getting used to the comics medium and how lamentably short it is. I'll never like it the way I like the TV format, but I think the pacing has been pretty good so far in S9; maybe a little rushed around the Severin parts, but certainly in #6 the the pacing was as good as anything else about it.

But it’s not about what happens, it’s about that moment of decision, and just articulating what so many people are not saying, but so many are thinking."

I like that, and I would be mostly satisfied with it as a pro-choice story if she changed her mind and decided to keep the baby (I say 'mostly,' b/c honestly, I'm not 100% okay with it if she was actually raped; in the real world, sure, that's a woman's prerogative to keep the baby in those circumstances and all the power to her, but given the rape culture we live in and all the current bills trying to outlaw abortion, I think it's really irresponsible to tell that kind of story; I know that's mixing politics/meta with storytelling, but it's a gut feeling I can't get rid of). However, I think that pro-choice message would be completely undermined if she tried to abort the baby and then couldn't because it were mystical. Joss would be like, "See, even though she can't carry through with it, she still made the choice! I get to be a pro-choice feminist and eat my cake, too!" And no, that's so wrong. And it could be made even worse if Buffy ended up being happy about having the baby after all; clearly I want her to be happy, and I don't think it would necessarily be OOC if she ended up being okay with it (although I would hope that she'd still be angry on principle about the bodily violation), but on a meta level, that would feed right into pro-lifer politics: "See how evil abortion is and misguided you were? You'll eventually be glad you were forced to keep the fetus!"

Ergh, see, the comics medium is bad for me, because my thoughts spiral in so many angsty directions, and it really doesn't help when Joss interviews, because I can't stand him. Silvering lining, at least the comics leave time to write fic. Can you imagine trying to squeeze stuff out in a week-long break between episodes? I wouldn't even feel the motivation because we'd get more canon so soon.

Also joining in the flail! Just picked up my copy. Love it, can't wait to see how this all plays out.

We Spuffy fans were very lucky yesterday. I can't believe we have to wait a month to find out what happens next! The comics medium is so aggravating in that regard.

"What did you need to tell me?"

I totally understand why Buffy might be too distracted to remember that Spike wanted to tell her something, but it'd be nice to finally hear him say it. :-)

I don't want Joss writing a baby plot. He doesn't deserve any trust in that regard after all the abominable pregnancy plots on AtS

Agreed. The word "pregnancy" is synonymous with "debaucle" when Joss is in charge. :-P

BUFFY WANTS SPIKE TO BE HER BABY!DADDY!

I know, right? When she said that she knows she "has" Spike and that she wanted him to help her with her child, I almost died. If anything, it shows how important he is to her. Seriously, I'm tearing up right now. :-P

it's a girl

I've always thought that, if Spike and Buffy had a kid, it would be a girl. Spike's personality says Girl Daddy to me.

it'd be nice to finally hear him say it. :-)

I don't think he would, though! In light of her dealing with pregnancy/abortion, I think he'd immediately obfuscate and pretend it wasn't anything important- which makes sense; he wouldn't want to say anything that might feel like a burden. Much as I'm sure Buffy would like to hear that he loves her, she has more pressing matters to consider at the moment...

If anything, it shows how important he is to her. Seriously, I'm tearing up right now. :-P

IT WAS SO GOOD AND BEAUTIFUL, AND EVERYTHING IS RAINBOWS AND SPUFFY, AND NOTHING HURTS. :D

yes yes yes Spike spoiling bitty Buffy would be FLAWLESS.

DO WANT PLEASE.

It could be so wonderful!!

(Although I don't trust Joss with babies.)

(This is why we have baby!fic. Mmm, Spuffy baby!fic)

:D

well, i dunno, it's mostly pregnancies that Joss is bad about, maybe if he ever actually got to the baby part it would be alright!! (shhh connor doesn't count he wasn't a baby very long) (alright i'm aware that this logic has some holes in it) (let me live in denial)

(let me live in denial)

Heh, I think it's pretty necessary to live in denial at least some of the time if you're a Joss fan. "This time the story will end happily!" "Character X didn't really die!"

Hehe! This issue was great! I really liked the writing here. Makes me feel just a bit better with what future issues may hold.

If Spike turns out not to be the daddy I'd be A-OK with Buffy going through with the abortion since I really like the pro-choice message...but if Spike is the daddy...just rip out my heart and stomp on it Joss!!!

If the baby is born though, I'm with you on it being a girl!!

I loved Spike and Robert too(I hate using his last name, lol). I really want to see them interact some more and I hope they'll be friends just like Spike and Koh. And Buffy and Dawn, oooh, I loved that one so much. So many feelings this issue, with Dawn and Buffy and Spike and Buffy. Emotion overload this week!

The writing was so good in this issue! All the characters felt like themselves! That's so rare these days.

if Spike is the daddy...just rip out my heart and stomp on it Joss!!!

I would only be okay with Spike being the dad if the sex were consensual. Until we get proof that it was, I can't hope that Spike's the father. I'm just too squicked out right now by the writers refusing to address the issue. :/

Emotion overload this week!

I SYMPATHIZE. :D

I have a feeling that the writing will continue to be just as good, or will continue to get better as Andrew grows in his BtVS writing experience.

And I was talking about it being consensual. I meant if Buffy has an abortion, doesn't realize that it's Spike's, and it's the only time he can have a child (that would hurt). If Spike's the father I don't think the writers are going to have him be it through noncon (especially because of the AR). It'll be from a mutual drunkenness.

If it was anything other than consensual then...gah, that would turn me off for the season quicker than anything else. But with the way they have written it I'm not even going to consider it a possibility until the writers specifically point out that's what happened (and they could do that and surprise me). I understand the point of view and interpretation about it being rape but I feel that it's very unlikely at this point.

I don’t want to place Buffy as a victim. Buffy is always put in situations where she could be a victim and fights back, why force Buffy into the role of victim when she couldn’t fight back (by being too drunk to fight back, because we've seen her drunk before and she was still able to fight back if she needed to, Beer Bad comes to mind)? Why would the writers put her in a situation where she couldn’t fight back and was forced into this type of situation? It just doesn't fit my view of the show and would really surprise me if they went that route.

Not saying strong women can't be raped, just that if Buffy was raped I don't think they would hype up who the father is, have Buffy be happy about the baby, or completely ignore the topic in her convo with Dawn. I don't think the writers would have presented the situation the way it is if Buffy's pregnancy was from rape (that would be too huge to ignore like this IMO). I think if it was about rape then we'd have seen something by now that would indicate that it was and it would probably really highlight Buffy's decision to get an abortion. Instead we have focus on Buffy's decision being about her not being ready and Spike becoming buddies with Robert. So I don't think rape is even going to come up because I don't think we are suppose to see it as such. But the very fact so many do see it this way is one area in which the writers failed I think.

I'm assuming crash positions right now! It'll probably be worse next issue! THE CREYS!

It'll be from a mutual drunkenness.

I would like to think that's a likely possibility, but AtS implies that it takes a lot to get a vampire drunk, and they never showed Spike seeming even a little drunk at the party. :/ I don't think it would be in-character for Spike to take advantage of Buffy while she was drunk, but I can see Joss doing it anyway; he has few compunctions about skewing characterization when it gets in the way of his plot.

that would turn me off for the season quicker than anything else.

Ditto. I could barely deal with it if it were a different guy who had raped her. I don't think I'd even try if they had Spike rape her.

why force Buffy into the role of victim when she couldn’t fight back

I don't think the implication is that she couldn't fight back but that she wouldn't. I.e., drunk!Buffy might not have objected to the sex, but it would still be statutory rape because she would be too intoxicated to give consent.

So I don't think rape is even going to come up because I don't think we are suppose to see it as such.

See, I think it needs to be brought up, because if Buffy really doesn't remember who she slept with, then she could have been raped. It's possible that she wasn't- that she had sex while sober and blacked out afterward or that the father was also too drunk to give consent- but it's equally possible that it was rape, and the fact that the writers won't even acknowledge the possibility is really poor writing and makes it seem like they're sugarcoating the situation. Most women would probably be worried about having been taken advantage of, and the writers ignoring that facet of the situation plays into rape culture in a horrible way.

So even if it turns out to not have been rape (which is obviously what I hope), I'm still disappointed in the writers for not acknowledging the possibility when it's something real women would worry about.

Well, my interpretation of issue 1 party Spike was that by his "I only hire cockroaches" panel he was drunk. We see him immediately start drinking from his first panel at the party (he is holding a beer bottle while telling his season 4 tale) and then with another drink as he complains about the bugs to Tumble, who seems to be talking about something else (the band) which makes me believe they had a disjointed conversation (which to me is the beginning signs of drunkenness). And that panel which he says "I only hire cockroaches" we have Buffy in the background yell "keep 'em coming bar maid" so I think the party did supply enough drinks for a vampire to get drunk.

I don't think it's in character for Spike either. I just can see Joss going for them, after having enough drinks in them both, tumbling into sex because they've been bottling up their feelings for each other for so long. Drunkenness brings out the things you try to hide while sober. I only believe that if Spike did have sex with Buffy at the party it was while they both were drunk and that something lead them to it. So no, I don't think Spike took advantage of Buffy...just when you're drunk you do stupid things or can fall into weakness. Drunk Buffy came onto drunk Spike and he couldn't say no?

I still don't and won't believe it's rape. If it was rape I think the whole thing would have been set up differently. I don't see it as (statutory) rape if drunk Buffy and drunk guy had sex, because I dunno...maybe it's wrong, but I just thought that was a normal thing. A mistake that party goers make sometimes, something that just happens. You get drunk, you see something you like and the drunk guy wants it too and in the morning you both regret, but...maybe I'm too liberal? I just don't see it as a big deal.

Now if a guy took advantage (he wasn't drunk too), yeah I get the concern and feel the same. That would be douchebagy. But again it doesn't fit with my view on the Buffy series for that to happen. I won't deny that it could happen but it feels kind of anti thesis for the series because for the same reasons I gave before. That not only was it not brought up as a reason for the abortion decision but I just feel like that would be deconstructing what Buffy stands for (Buffy, who fights against these situations time and again falls victim to rape at long last when she was too drunk to remember? That feels so off for what the series means to me). The whole set up feels more like a common party mistake of two drunken people making with the regrets (I mean that for whoever slept with Buffy, they had to have been both drunk). I get that strong women can get raped but I don't feel like that is something that Joss would put Buffy through all the way.

(I mean, he could have had Buffy raped by Xander/Angel/Spike when they tried and show her over coming that if the writers wanted to explore this topic, but they never go all the way. They have attempts made but it never happens...until now by a stranger because she was drunk? I hope I'm not coming off horribly with this, I just don't think I'm making myself clear. I just think if they were going to explore Buffy being raped they wouldn't do it like this. I could be wrong, but...like I said it just doesn't seem to fit with the series to me...For the AR re:Spike they had her have a back injury yet she still was able to kick him away, for Xander she was normal and could fight back, and for Angel they had her high on glow.)

I'm just really sorry that the writers didn't pay more attention to this angle when writing out the scenario...it's so...tasteless of them. I do think they are writing from a male point of view (not that men can't get raped). Men don't think about rape, they think "Oh god, who did I sleep with?" and they are going on from there.

I don't think they are going to bring it up and I do agree that it's a poor decision on their part, but I think we'll get flashbacks on what happened and then we'll be reassured (or disgusted enough to quite the comics).

Edited 2012-02-26 10:01 (UTC)

We see him immediately start drinking from his first panel at the party (he is holding a beer bottle while telling his season 4 tale) and then with another drink as he complains about the bugs to Tumble

I like your analysis of it. None of the panels reminded me of his sloppy inebriation in "Entropy" (he always seemed like more of a depressed drunk than a happy drunk to me, although that could just be because he was depressed in general at the time), but I see your point in how they're consistent about showing him drinking and making strange comments that imply he's becoming more and more intoxicated.

Drunk Buffy came onto drunk Spike and he couldn't say no?

I'd be okay with that if they made it blindingly clear that he was drunk, too. It's not my ideal version of their reunion, but I could live with it. :)

I don't see it as (statutory) rape if drunk Buffy and drunk guy had sex, because I dunno...maybe it's wrong, but I just thought that was a normal thing. A mistake that party goers make sometimes, something that just happens. You get drunk, you see something you like and the drunk guy wants it too and in the morning you both regret, but...maybe I'm too liberal? I just don't see it as a big deal.

Oh, no, I totally agree that it's not rape (statutory or otherwise) if they're both drunk! I should have been clearer. I would be completely fine with the conception if it happened while both Buffy and the father were completely intoxicated.

It is a bit of a surprise, honestly. Spike on the show wasn't very happy much, so I think that showed when he drank. This Spike seems happier, more comfortable in his own skin so to speak. It would be the first time we would see him being happily drunk at a party filled with fun. In my experience with alcohol, my current state of mind determines if I became a happy/fun drunk or mean/crazy one... :s

Oh, god, yes. When I first read issue 1 my gut reaction was hoping it wasn't Spike because that's the last reunion I would want for them in canon. But when I thought about it, it would seem very spuffy. It's not perfect, which their history is filled with imperfection. To me though, that's what I really like about them, they have perfection because it's imperfect.

Also, I wrote a really bad one shot of season 9 in which Spike and Buffy got drunk and had sex...which I forgot about until recently...seems odd now. =/

With issue 7 just around the corner...maybe all these worries will be replaced with new ones? o.O

This Spike seems happier, more comfortable in his own skin so to speak. It would be the first time we would see him being happily drunk at a party filled with fun.

Yeah, that makes sense that he'd act differently since his sober mindframe is completely different.

With issue 7 just around the corner...maybe all these worries will be replaced with new ones? o.O

Having just read #7...*headdesk*

*headdesks with you*

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Flipping a Shit (Happily)

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