Question for Spuffy Fans

[gryfndor_godess]

I typically don’t stray outside Spuffy fandom on LJ, but the impression I’ve gotten over the past few months (and it could be wrong) is that S8- and let’s face it, mostly #39-40, ‘cause they were fine with the spacefrak- caused many Bangel fans disavow the comics, change their tune on the comics’ canonicity, or simply lose interest in the ship and series because they were so disgusted. It also seems as though even fans who didn’t like the comics to begin with have been turned off of fandom.

I don’t expect Spuffy to end up happily ever after.  However, I also can't imagine Buffy and Spike ever fading into a lukewarm, 100% platonic relationship.  So that begs the question, what will Joss do to ensure that they cannot be happy together?  Knowing the way Joss’s twisted little mind works, part of me thinks he’ll set up Spuffy on a grand scale only to knock it down in a horrible fashion, a la Twangel, so as to put both ships on even, scorched earth. Frankly, I’m not sure that Joss could ever do anything to destroy Spuffy as thoroughly as Bangel has been destroyed because Spike and Buffy have already dragged each other to hell and back. Barring Spike killing Dawn or actually raping Buffy, I’m not sure what he could do that would betray Buffy as much as Angel betrayed her (although I’ve probably jinxed it now that I’ve said that).

In any case, let’s suppose that Joss does his worst and ruins Spuffy as horribly as Bangel has been ruined- that Spike betrays Buffy as badly as Angel did. My question is, how would you, as a Spuffy fan, react? Would you be able to stay in fandom as usual and love Spuffy- TV Spuffy, S8 Spuffy, your own version of Spuffy, etc.- as whole-heartedly as ever? Would you be able to ignore the comics? Or would you be so disgusted that it would tarnish your love for any kind of Spuffy and make you want to leave fandom?

I’m not certain what effect it would have on me, but I think my Spuffy love would survive the trauma. Barring a miracle movie or show with all the actors, for me, canon will always have ended with NFA; so while I enjoyed the lovely Spuffy bits in S8, I wasn't and still am not heavily invested in the comics. However, I know there are Spuffy fans who take the comics a heck of a lot more seriously.

In conclusion, thoughts please: Whether you’re a fan of the comics or not, would a Spuffy implosion of Twangel proportions in the comics hurt your love? How do you think it would affect our awesome corner of fandom?

Comments

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I don't expect Joss to do anything but trash our characters some more. I don't see it affecting me any more than season 8 has. If there's something I (or some other writer) can use to write a Spuffy story (even an angsty one), fine; if there isn't, there are always all the AUs that exist out there that can be carried into a future where the comics never existed.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I don't see it affecting me any more than season 8 has.

That's nice to hear. You write so much fun post-NFA fic and try out so many different AU scenarios that I would take it as an especially bad sign if you of all people stopped writing.

[snickfic]

I don't think I personally would care that much; I already hat S8 in general so much that I can think of very few things they could do that would make me hate the comics more. (In fact, I can think of precisely two: kill Spike, and kill Dawn.) Heck, they killed off Giles and I barely blinked, even though I fell in love with the Faith/Giles ship specifically through the comics. (The one good thing to come out of them, as far as I'm concerned.)

That said, if the comics did awful, awful things to Spuffy (or more awful, anyway; I strongly dislike Spuffy as it stands in the comics now), I expect the fannish implosion to follow would be pretty awful. I was just thinking the other day how wonderfully peaceful it was around these parts, with no comics-related discussion. I really just wish they would never come back

(However: both LJ and DW now have options to opt in/out of viewing various of your friends' tags on your flist. If I'm meticulous about it, I might be able to just never seen comics discussion on my flist again. \o/ )

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I would be upset if they killed Spike. I would have been upset if they killed Dawn in S7, but I don't think I would care in the comics b/c I'm just too apathetic about everyone- i.e., in my head comics!Dawn isn't the *real* Dawn, so it doesn't matter if she dies. Ditto on Giles. I was actually a little vindictively happy about his death b/c he annoyed me so much in S6 and S7.

I expect the fannish implosion to follow would be pretty awful.

:/ I worry that it would be like the schism caused by the soul post-"Grave." Not that I was in fandom when it happened, but I know it sent some fans packing for good. I would hate to see everyone here as embittered as the Bangel fans have become.

how wonderfully peaceful it was around these parts, with no comics-related discussion.

Yeah. Part of me is excited to see where the story heads next (and then I remind that excited part that Spuffy is not going to end well), but I get exhausted just thinking about the issue-to-issue brouhaha and all the speculation. *Sigh*

[smells_corrupt.livejournal.com]

I have very little interest in the comics, and I don't consider them canon, but I do keep up with the basic premise of what's goin on in them. Personally I don't think there's anything they could do that would make me stop being a fan of the ship. I also think that can probably be said for most people in this corner of fandom. We love the ship in spite of, and because of, the hell they put each other through. There's not much they can do to each other that can top where they've already been.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

There's not much they can do to each other that can top where they've already been.

That's what I keep hoping. I'm glad I'm not the only one. :)

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

While I still enjoy Spuffy in fic, I've become a bitter reader particularly with post NFA fic. So in all honesty I doubt those godawful comics could reinstate my love for Spuffy back in its rightful place of my heart for me to care let alone ruin it more than they already did.


But you already knew this.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

But you already knew this.

I was thinking of you when posting. :( Well, I'm glad the comics couldn't do more to ruin your remaining affection.

[spygrrl76.livejournal.com]

Makes no difference to me. I stopped following the comics eons ago and only vaguely hear about the major events through LJ. Definitely will not kill my love of Spike & Buffy, especially if great fanfic continues. I definitely don't consider the comic cannon. They are so weird alternate reality to me.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Very glad to hear all of that! :)

[rahirah]

I don't think Joss has to do anything. The relationship is dead in the water already, and all Joss has to do is leave it that way. There are lots of things S9 could do to annoy me, but the things I hate about S8 (and am deeply ambivalent and unhappy about in S6 and S7) ultimately the fault of the writers, not the characters, and so I can still enjoy other interpretations of the characters in fanfic.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

The relationship is dead in the water already, and all Joss has to do is leave it that way.

Blech. Sigh. That's not the interpretation I usually take, but I can definitely see it that way. I really liked that drabble you did a while ago about how Spike's comforting words in #40 were actually not what she needed to hear. If he really does start pandering, then it's deader than a vampire.

[quinara]

For me personally, the comics have already ruined Spuffy - as in retconned the relationship to a dynamic I can't stand and don't think ever existed on the show in anything more than a fleeting glimpse. I don't see how they can really be happy together now, since they seem to have lost all ability to communicate as equals. They're basically going through the motions of one of my least favourite fanfic dynamics...

Anyway! That was the final straw for me on S8, but certainly not on Spuffy. All that's happened is that I try not to deal with S8 canon at all anymore: I don't follow fic set in it and I certainly don't write it (in fact I've mostly gone back to writing things set within the TV series, though I have also gone back to the main post NFA verse ideas I had before the comics started). Certain ideas will probably stay with me - I ship (my old and thus practically OC version of) Satsu with Dawn and I quite like my Buffy-in-Rome decoy character - but I have absolutely no desire to fic that world anymore. (Which shouldn't be a loss to anyone, although it always surprises me how many fics I have actually set in the comics timeline.)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I don't see how they can really be happy together now, since they seem to have lost all ability to communicate as equals.

He did seem to be putting her on a pedestal that she no longer (if ever) deserved. I'm hopeful that the writers will restore the S7 dynamic or even a more playful dynamic a la Spike of AtS S5, even if the dynamic wouldn't flow naturally from S8 (it's not like they have excellent writing standards to live up to or maintain). But if not, I'll mostly likely bow out from the comics, too.

Well, it's encouraging that you are as Spuffy as ever after having already decided to eschew the comics with a firm hand. :)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

that Spike betrays Buffy as badly as Angel did

I don't think that will happen. The way Joss will ruin Spuffy is to have Buffy betray Spike as badly as Angel did her. Which may have already happened. Though I can imagine ways it could happen worse than it already has. That's the way the dynamic is heading, though. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, after all.

I was very unhappy with the comics from about #25 onward. Dawn apologizing to her abuser Kenny was the first misstep in a long line of them, never mind the Twangel mess. I'd like to say it didn't affect my enjoyment of fandom, but it really, really did. I've found things in S8 to draw on for fic, but the new "canon" was a real suppressant for months. Even without S8, I've grown pickier about my Spuffy, probably just from being around for so long. With people like you turning out the good stuff, I imagine I'll be okay...

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

to have Buffy betray Spike as badly as Angel did her.

I can actually see that happening much more than the opposite, too, although that would be piling a heck of a lot of mistake-making on Buffy considering the guilt she already bears/feels for S8. It would be interesting to see the dynamic if Spike were the injured party and to see him try to move on while she lingered- but interesting in an academic, 'what-if' sense, not in an 'I accept this as remotely likable or plausible' sense.

Dawn apologizing to her abuser Kenny was the first misstep in a long line of them

Honestly, I'm quite glad I only started reading at #36. I've thought about going back and reading the whole season, but most of the time, and especially learning stuff like this, I find I can't be bothered.

With people like you turning out the good stuff, I imagine I'll be okay...

*hugs* Speaking of good stuff, are you planning to continue your Dru/Spike/Buffy post-S8 fic that you started during SS? That was very intriguing and delightful and definitely a concept I wouldn't mind S9 exploring.

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I’m not sure that Joss could ever do anything to destroy Spuffy as thoroughly as Bangel has been destroyed because Spike and Buffy have already dragged each other to hell and back. Barring Spike killing Dawn or actually raping Buffy, I’m not sure what he could do that would betray Buffy as much as Angel betrayed her (although I’ve probably jinxed it now that I’ve said that).

Yeah, IA.

I'm one of the few who IS currently enjoying the S/B (I refuse to use that portmanteau...) in the comics at the moment, which no doubt is indicative of my complete apathy about them getting a happy ending, but I guess I'm not that invested. If they ARE ruined in S9 or whatever, I'll probably be pissed, but it won't affect my view of them in the show. That part is still perfect. :)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Wait, do you never use the term 'Spuffy'? Somehow I've missed that.

it won't affect my view of them in the show. That part is still perfect. :)

:D Music to my ears.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

I've actually given a fair amount of thought to this issue--in fact, I was afraid to read the comics because I didn't want them to ruin my feelings about S/B (which are almost entirely positive for the run of the show).

But, from what I've heard about the comics, I'm optimistic. I'm gonna read all of season 8 this summer, and I plan on reading season 9. And, it's entirely possible that I'm naive or blinded by optimism, but I really don't see Joss obliterating S/B the way he did B/A. I think there'll be some angst. Possibly long-term angst. But I'll be surprised and very disappointed if there's annihilation.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I've actually given a fair amount of thought to this issue

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I hope you like S8!

Possibly long-term angst.

I think for me that would be almost as bad as flat-out annihilation b/c, well, I'm tired of S/B angst. They had reached such a good place in S7 that realistically they should be making progress, not taking two steps back again. And with annihilation I could say "Screw you, Joss" and stop caring, but with angst, I'd probably keep coming back for more in the hope of resolution, despite knowing better.

[misskittydu34.livejournal.com]

I read the comics, and I enjoy them sometimes, but they are not canon for me, so if I have to eliminate them of my world, I will. That said, I liked the way they adressed their relationship until now in season 8, and I expect more in season 9. If they ruin their relationship in the comics, it won't affect my love for their couple (that's impossible :P), but I'll be pissed during some time.

But for the moment, I'm optimistic :)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

so if I have to eliminate them of my world, I will.

Ooh, I like that attitude. It's very pragmatic and confident, while still being optimistic. :)

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

Barring Spike killing Dawn or actually raping Buffy, I’m not sure what he could do that would betray Buffy as much as Angel betrayed her (although I’ve probably jinxed it now that I’ve said that).

Hopefully I'm not jinxing it too, but I could envision an epic implosion due to Spike and Dawn fluking (Xander's the only one not aboard the angst train right now, and we know Joss won't let that one slide for long).

In conclusion, thoughts please: Whether you’re a fan of the comics or not, would a Spuffy implosion of Twangel proportions in the comics hurt your love? How do you think it would affect our awesome corner of fandom?

I doubt it would have much effect. The fact that many shipping communities exist despite their ships being imploded in canon suggests that Spuffy will survive in spite of any sort of implosion in the comics (which some people don't consider canon anyway).

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

but I could envision an epic implosion due to Spike and Dawn fluking

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that would actually be hilarious in an awful way. As in, it would be complete and total (and terrible) crack!fic, and you're right, Joss is actually effed up enough that I can see it happening. And then Xander would be conveniently free for Buffy. Oh, that would all be beyond the pale.

[samsom.livejournal.com]

I divorced Joss from the characters a long time ago, and I disregarded the comics almost as soon as I heard of them, so no, whatever Joss does in the comics will not make me dislike Spuffy at all.

But it may take my Joss dislike to as-yet-unheard-of heights.

In fact, I disregard the comics to the point where I don't believe Giles is dead.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

But it may take my Joss dislike to as-yet-unheard-of heights.

That's pretty much what the comics have done for me. I'm at the point where I'd probably still watch a new TV show of his, but I would be looking for things to criticize. I don't even want him directing The Avengers anymore.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

Comics Spuffy is dead to me. It died with the spacefrak and the utter bullshit that came out of Buffy's mouth.
I thought it might kill my fandom spuffy love, and it certainly supressed it for a little while, but it came back. I still read fics, new and old that make me a happy spuffy. The comics are not my canon.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I thought it might kill my fandom spuffy love...but it came back.

That's comforting to hear. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

he’ll set up Spuffy on a grand scale only to knock it down in a horrible fashion,

I think it was season 6: from OMWF to SR. That said, recently Joss started recycling his storylines (another Dark!Willow twist in s8), so everything is possible.

My only problem with Spuffy in season 9 is that I don't see any base for a real, juicy conflict between B&S. A global conflict. Unlike Angel, Spike won't be pondering upon "Buffy or the world" question. He'll choose Buffy without hesitation.

I can see small, soap-opera conflicts, like Spike visiting Angel and Buffy getting mad at him, though. This idea has already got explored in "Embers" by Coalitiongirl.

But we all know that Joss loves conflicts of epic proportions. And - he loves to surpass himself. So, either Spike's epic story is done and he'll be turned into the exposition man instead of Giles, or we'd better buckle up and prepare ourselves to major GWA (gut-wrenching angst). And I don't even know what's better.

I try to not take comics seriously. But I know I can't unsee what I saw. So far, so good - Spuffy friendship, Buffy's UST, Spike's cluelessness, their mixed signals. It's too good to last long. Not in Jossverse.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I hope we don't get Darth Willow again. She was fun to watch, but the build-up wasn't realistic enough to be worth it.

I'd be fine if there were neither huge conflicts nor soap-opera conflicts between Buffy and Spike. There's going to be enough non-romantic conflict in the post-seed world to deal with that it would make for a nice change of pace if Buffy and Spike just got to be in a strong, solid, explicitly romantic relationship for once. It's not like it would be treading old territory.

Everyone praises Joss for his creativity and willingness to take risks, but really, he's a coward, too; he won't portray healthy love in the long-term. He can't use the excuse that there are no happily ever afters, b/c they do exist (he and his wife certainly seem to exemplify successful love), so he just won't rise to the challenge of portraying it.

[shapinglight]

I'm with quinara. The comics killed Spuffy stone dead for me in no 36, when Buffy treated Spike so dismissively. Pronouncements from the comics PTBs haven't helped at all either. They don't seem to regard Spike as a major character or Spuffy as in any way important. In fact, they seem really taken aback that such people as Spuffy 'shippers exist at all, and I can't help thinking some of this mindset comes from Joss since they have actual physical contact with him and have discussed the show with him etc.

Mind you, the comics have also killed my Spangel love. I used to be a big time Spangel 'shipper. Now, I can't imagine ever writing it again except as nasty and abusive. Sad.

I hope I'll get over it in time because I still love the show in theory, but the fact that the bloody comic looks set to be going on and on and on won't help with that. I've sort of recovered over the hiatus and wish it was permanent.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

In fact, they seem really taken aback that such people as Spuffy 'shippers exist at all,

It's hard to believe that the writers are still pulling such crap after having been so surprised by fan reaction to the AR way back when. They didn't think there were Spuffy shippers back then either, apparently.

Now, I can't imagine ever writing it again except as nasty and abusive. Sad.

Although I'm not affected to the same extent b/c I don't consider the comics canon, I sympathize so much with that. I lovelovelove Spike and Angel's relationship in AtS S5, and the idea of Angel betraying Spike after that boggles my mind and seems unrealistic almost as much as the idea of Angel betraying Buffy. Regardless of what William and Angelus were to each other, Spike and Angel, with their souls, are not nasty and abusive to each other.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I like how some fic writers have incorporates Season 8 into their fic, like coalitiongirl's Embers story, but for the most part I expect the comics to totally screw Spuffy. That's why I count on fic writers to repair the damage, either by ignoring the comics altogether or by taking the comics story and making it Spuffy.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

That's why I count on fic writers to repair the damage

I'm definitely going to use that as a silver lining when I am inevitably disappointed by the comics; they have inspired and will continue to inspire great fic.

[seapealsh.livejournal.com]

I will always be Spuffy and I consider Season Eight and seasons following to be fanfiction, despite Joss' involvement. So I enjoy it at that level.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Season Eight and seasons following to be fanfiction

I like that viewpoint. :D

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I'm ambivalent about Season 9. Season 8 was a giant mess, and let's just say Brad Meltzer is on a list of mine that isn't about sunshine and puppies. I single him out because it was his arc that totally took me out of the comics and into the world of what the giant space-frakking fuck. If he writes for season 9, Scott Allie will actually get the half-written letter I've never sent to him. However, issue #40 alone got me interested again.

While I'm a hardcore Buffy shipper (I have a domain for fuckyeah-buffysummers on tumblr, but I haven't acted upon using it because I'm still debating whether it will be just Buffy, alone, or if I'll post shippy things, because the responsible person would also post Bangel stuff and . . . I'm not that responsible. I get miffed when I think a gen Buffy blog has a bias, and I don't want to become that gen Buffy blog with a bias. Yeah, sidetracked much?), I still am interested in the 'verse Joss has created, and I'm easily swayed by angearia's enthusiasm, so I'll be following Season 9 (note: "following" does not imply purchase of a product that may or may not enrage me. I haven't purchased an issue of Season 8, and I'm damn pleased with myself that I didn't), though I have compartmentalized the comics and the television show in my head so that one isn't dependent upon the other and vice versa.

I see both sides of it - how unsatisfying the Spuffy of season 8 was, and how promising season 9 is at this point. So I remain on the fence, but it's a comfortable fence because I have the comics and the show separate in my mind. Will fandom be torn to shreds by the comics? Yeah, no matter what happens (the Bangels are back to crowing about how "beautiful" season 8 was, you can always find them on the boards or at the blood roses forum if you want to gage what they're thinking) fandom will be up in arms over the comics - even the anti-comics people will have an opinion. So that's where I am.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

note: "following" does not imply purchase of a product that may or may not enrage me. I haven't purchased an issue of Season 8, and I'm damn pleased with myself that I didn't

I only started purchasing when Spike showed up in #36 after ascertaining from LJ reaction posts that the Buffy/Spike interactions were passably good (and I'm really glad I own a hard copy of Buffy's Spuffy daydreams- those panels are so gorgeous). I haven't decided yet what I'll do about S9. On the one hand, I'm invested enough to want to know the whole story now, as opposed to just the Buffy/Spike bits, but OTOH, I'm opposed to buying the comics on moral grounds b/c of what Joss has done to the verse.

because the responsible person would also post Bangel stuff and . . . I'm not that responsible.

*nods* I'd feel the same way.

I see both sides of it - how unsatisfying the Spuffy of season 8 was, and how promising season 9 is at this point.

That's a great way to describe it. I'm definitely trying to keep an open mind about S9 and am looking forward to it, but I am dreading the fandom backlash.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Sorry to bump an old post, but I just found it.

For me, as far as Spuffy goes, I'm not really interested in it. I'm far too cynical of Joss to believe he isn't just baiting fans to get them to read before spitting on them. 34-36 were just such an over-the-top smack in the face that I can't buy anything good coming out of it. I find the idea of Buffy chasing after him completely unappealing.

Unlike others, I do think Spike is going to get screwed with in S9. He'll do something. Maybe not Dawn or attack Buffy, but he'll do something.

I can't really ship them anyway. I don't know who that Buffy was in S8. Just so laughably OOC, I don't even know. It's like a bashfic characterization and the writers wanted us to like that she was getting trashed. Until there's an explanation for her behavior, I don't think I can ship her with anyone.

Not that I consider the comics canon or anything.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

No need to apologize. :) I appreciate when people take the time to comment on old posts.

Unlike others, I do think Spike is going to get screwed with in S9. He'll do something. Maybe not Dawn or attack Buffy, but he'll do something.

I can't see him do anything in-character to really screw up, but I can totally see Joss turning him as OOC as some of the other characters were in S8 and making pod!Spike screw up somehow.

It's like a bashfic characterization and the writers wanted us to like that she was getting trashed.

Ooh, interesting interpretation. I can see how one comes to that conclusion. To me it felt like Joss was deliberately having her do OOC stuff (well, he probably didn't think it was OOC) to tear her down simply so he can (at least one would hope) build her back up again. But building-up again stories are only interesting if the tearing down wasn't contrived and OOC, which IMO, S8!Buffy's characterization was. It seems like laziness to me to ruin Buffy's life again when she become such a mature, happy woman in S7.

Not that I consider the comics canon or anything.

Me neither.

[darynthe.livejournal.com]

A little late to the party but I wanted to share my input. I also just read the comics from #36 on and also peeked at the "spacefrak". I am very hopeful and interested in S9, seems Josh is writing it himself and hopefully, if he wants a S10, he won't ruin Spuffy for the time being. Plus seems Buffy will return to her roots. Which is good...
That said, I totally don't get how people refuse to see the comics as canon. I mean Joss say they are 100% canon so no matter what we think...they are.

So I guess that if he really finds a way to ruin Spuffy somehow, permanently (although doesn't look like feasable or in -character) he will ruin all the series for me.

One way he could kill Spuffy without making them morally disguisting -a la Angel- is simply by having Buffy getting married to someone else or Spike falling for someone else.

However I will still love Spike. He is the best character for TV ever written.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

That said, I totally don't get how people refuse to see the comics as canon. I mean Joss say they are 100% canon so no matter what we think...they are.

I'm one of those people, so I could explain that viewpoint. First of all, it simply doesn't matter to me if Joss is involved or what he says; I don't care for him that much, and this was before the spacefrak, which made me lose a lot of my respect for him. Secondly, S8 is a different medium, which is a valid reason for separating it from canon. Why should I have to consider comic books, which have a different writing team, different way of communicating to readers, and lack the actors who were so vital to bringing the characters to life, as canon equal to the TV show? It's not. The show has subtleties and nuances that the comics can never match because of their two-dimensional, actor-less quality. Thirdly, I've read (and this is the Internet, so it may be false) that Joss has said that if the actors miraculously agreed to return for a TV-show S8, he would scrap the plotlines from the comics. If the creator himself says he would disregard "canon" that easily, it doesn't hold much water as canon in the first place.

If you're looking for a reason to not consider them canon, I hope that helps. I'm sorry it would ruin Spuffy for you otherwise. :(

Thanks for your input! I always like new input on old posts. :)