Question for Spuffy Fans

[gryfndor_godess]

I typically don’t stray outside Spuffy fandom on LJ, but the impression I’ve gotten over the past few months (and it could be wrong) is that S8- and let’s face it, mostly #39-40, ‘cause they were fine with the spacefrak- caused many Bangel fans disavow the comics, change their tune on the comics’ canonicity, or simply lose interest in the ship and series because they were so disgusted. It also seems as though even fans who didn’t like the comics to begin with have been turned off of fandom.

I don’t expect Spuffy to end up happily ever after.  However, I also can't imagine Buffy and Spike ever fading into a lukewarm, 100% platonic relationship.  So that begs the question, what will Joss do to ensure that they cannot be happy together?  Knowing the way Joss’s twisted little mind works, part of me thinks he’ll set up Spuffy on a grand scale only to knock it down in a horrible fashion, a la Twangel, so as to put both ships on even, scorched earth. Frankly, I’m not sure that Joss could ever do anything to destroy Spuffy as thoroughly as Bangel has been destroyed because Spike and Buffy have already dragged each other to hell and back. Barring Spike killing Dawn or actually raping Buffy, I’m not sure what he could do that would betray Buffy as much as Angel betrayed her (although I’ve probably jinxed it now that I’ve said that).

In any case, let’s suppose that Joss does his worst and ruins Spuffy as horribly as Bangel has been ruined- that Spike betrays Buffy as badly as Angel did. My question is, how would you, as a Spuffy fan, react? Would you be able to stay in fandom as usual and love Spuffy- TV Spuffy, S8 Spuffy, your own version of Spuffy, etc.- as whole-heartedly as ever? Would you be able to ignore the comics? Or would you be so disgusted that it would tarnish your love for any kind of Spuffy and make you want to leave fandom?

I’m not certain what effect it would have on me, but I think my Spuffy love would survive the trauma. Barring a miracle movie or show with all the actors, for me, canon will always have ended with NFA; so while I enjoyed the lovely Spuffy bits in S8, I wasn't and still am not heavily invested in the comics. However, I know there are Spuffy fans who take the comics a heck of a lot more seriously.

In conclusion, thoughts please: Whether you’re a fan of the comics or not, would a Spuffy implosion of Twangel proportions in the comics hurt your love? How do you think it would affect our awesome corner of fandom?

Comments

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

But I seriously don't understand what everyone else sees in him.

Same, mostly. I wouldn't say no to going on a date with S7 Xander 'cause by then I think he's mostly okay, personality-wise (although by that point I no longer find him physically attractive). Objectively speaking, I think S5 Xander is an attractive catch, but only if I didn't know about all the crap he pulled in earlier years, like the love spell in BBB and the hyena memory-forgetting.

Either way, the fact that every female falls for him eventually is ew, suspicious, and deeply offensive.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts are almost mine exactly. He started out cute enough (if not at all my type) but SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON (he's got good qualities, but there are too many moments that make me furious at him for me to really love him), then by the time he finally became a good guy (S7), I'm like you and no longer think he's cute.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I'm like you and no longer think he's cute.

I feel shallow for thinking that way, but how am I supposed to help myself with Spike around for comparison?? :D

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YMMV, of course, on whether it's intentional that the average teenage guy is a horrible person when it comes to dealing with girls.

Yeah, I mean, that's the way that societal conditioning tells teenage boys to act, you're right. It's just...I kind of hate the idea that that's what's typical, you know? I guess I know some really extraordinary guys.

Definitely physical appearance. But the two are really tied closely for me. I can't tell you how many times I started watching a TV show not thinking a character was particularly attractive, but then I got to know that character and suddenly I find him RIDICULOUSLY HOT. And on the flip side of things, if someone's douchey or mean or an ass or whatever, it doesn't matter how hot he is: I instantly find him much less attractive.

I'm probably never going to go from finding someone straight-up unattractive to finding them really hot, even if their personality is awesome. But if the person starts out pretty average, then personality makes all the difference. Does that make any sense at all?

Honest question as a straight male with limited ability to evaluate Xander's attractiveness. =P


I have a question about this. This way of thinking is pretty foreign to me--I have zero problem evaluating which women I think are hot, even though I'm a straight woman. There are some women I find sexy as hell, even though I'm not sexually attracted to them. Now, admittedly, a lot of times the women I think are super hot don't fall in line with conventional wisdom, so take that with a grain of salt. But I'm fascinated by the fact that guys don't seem to be able to judge whether other men are good-looking. Do you personally think it's because you're socially conditioned to not even think that way? Because I would think you'd be able to evaluate someone aesthetically if not from a sexual-attractiveness perspective.

Am I being coherent at all? I'm incredibly interested in this topic. :D

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, that's the way that societal conditioning tells teenage boys to act, you're right. It's just...I kind of hate the idea that that's what's typical, you know? I guess I know some really extraordinary guys.

Or the guys just wouldn't show you that side to them. In my experience, girls are fairly blind to which guys are jerks (and vice versa, with most guys blind to which girls are jerks), and people often speak differently around people of the gender they are attracted to then when not.

I'm probably never going to go from finding someone straight-up unattractive to finding them really hot, even if their personality is awesome. But if the person starts out pretty average, then personality makes all the difference. Does that make any sense at all?

Absolutely. Attractiveness is the sum of both physical and non-physical factors, to different degrees.


Do you personally think it's because you're socially conditioned to not even think that way? Because I would think you'd be able to evaluate someone aesthetically if not from a sexual-attractiveness perspective.

Am I being coherent at all? I'm incredibly interested in this topic. :D

Haha, I understand what you're saying. My theory is that the evaluation of appearance is learned, and that guys simply have very little in the way of practice when it comes to evaluting other guys.

Female social status in our society is primarily driven by physical apperance, and as a consequence, girls learn to evaluate themselves and each other as a critical social skill. By contrast, guys do not need to care anywhere near as much about their own appearances, and bother comparing themselves to other guys due to lack of necessity. Noticeable aversions exist among straight males who work in fashion or the entertainment industry, because they are used to being judged and judging other males in appearance and so have developed that skill.

Personally, I just don't really know what's considered attractive for a guy; it's hard for me to evaluate even my own appearance. While I'm aware that most girls consider me 'cute', this is informed by others, not because I look in the mirror and find myself attractive. I am, however, able to evaluate my physique's attractiveness, since as an athlete I am used to comparing guys on that basis (but even there I am aware that studies have shown that even though most guys think being 'buff' looks good, most girls prefer slimmer 'dancer' type bodies on their men).

In a way, I don't think it's that different from the evaluation of art. If you have little experience critiquing abstract art or poetry or classical music, then it is very difficult to provide aesthetic analysis, beyond perhaps a basic level.

Edit: for clarity

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

and people often speak differently around people of the gender they are attracted to then when not.

This is true. Which on the one hand is a good thing, because it means that they at least know there's something problematic about it. But not so good that it probably comes out in actions.

My theory is that the evaluation of appearance is learned, and that guys simply have very little in the way of practice when it comes to evaluting other guys.

Mine as well. Your thoughts aline with my own.

I wonder if a guy spends more time around girls growing up if he would be better at it? I have one or two straight guy friends who are very comfortable not always playing by enforced gender rules because they grew up with a lot of sisters/girl friends, and they both will answer with which guys they think are attractive when asked (though their answers tend to be more hyper-masculine--Clive Owen and Daniel Craig are two that come to mind that they've mentioned).


In a way, I don't think it's that different from the evaluation of art. If you have little experience critiquing abstract art or poetry or classical music, then it is very difficult to provide aesthetic analysis, beyond perhaps a basic level.

I can see what you're saying, and I agree.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

I wonder if a guy spends more time around girls growing up if he would be better at it? I have one or two straight guy friends who are very comfortable not always playing by enforced gender rules because they grew up with a lot of sisters/girl friends

It probably helps, but I'd say that it's also necessary to interact with them in a way that goes against gender rules. I have more female friends than male friends, but I don't think I spend too much time talking to them about which guys are hot.

they both will answer with which guys they think are attractive when asked (though their answers tend to be more hyper-masculine--Clive Owen and Daniel Craig are two that come to mind that they've mentioned).

Haha, I think it's possible for more guys to answer who we think are attractive, but we might merely not have too much faith in our accuracy and/or we're guessing what girls like based on what we know of cultural standards of masculinity.

I might be willing to do John Barrowman or Johnny Depp though.

[snickfic]

I would like to take this time to say that my dad says I'm incapable of telling whether another woman is pretty because I'm a woman, and therefore my opinion of her beauty is invalid. Which DRIVES ME CRAZY.

RRR RRR RRR.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

He started out cute enough (if not at all my type) but SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON (he's got good qualities, but there are too many moments that make me furious at him for me to really love him)

I'd argue he starts out as a 'typical' teenage boy, as befits his intended everyman status. YMMV, of course, on whether it's intentional that the average teenage guy is a horrible person when it comes to dealing with girls.