Question for Spuffy Fans

[gryfndor_godess]

I typically don’t stray outside Spuffy fandom on LJ, but the impression I’ve gotten over the past few months (and it could be wrong) is that S8- and let’s face it, mostly #39-40, ‘cause they were fine with the spacefrak- caused many Bangel fans disavow the comics, change their tune on the comics’ canonicity, or simply lose interest in the ship and series because they were so disgusted. It also seems as though even fans who didn’t like the comics to begin with have been turned off of fandom.

I don’t expect Spuffy to end up happily ever after.  However, I also can't imagine Buffy and Spike ever fading into a lukewarm, 100% platonic relationship.  So that begs the question, what will Joss do to ensure that they cannot be happy together?  Knowing the way Joss’s twisted little mind works, part of me thinks he’ll set up Spuffy on a grand scale only to knock it down in a horrible fashion, a la Twangel, so as to put both ships on even, scorched earth. Frankly, I’m not sure that Joss could ever do anything to destroy Spuffy as thoroughly as Bangel has been destroyed because Spike and Buffy have already dragged each other to hell and back. Barring Spike killing Dawn or actually raping Buffy, I’m not sure what he could do that would betray Buffy as much as Angel betrayed her (although I’ve probably jinxed it now that I’ve said that).

In any case, let’s suppose that Joss does his worst and ruins Spuffy as horribly as Bangel has been ruined- that Spike betrays Buffy as badly as Angel did. My question is, how would you, as a Spuffy fan, react? Would you be able to stay in fandom as usual and love Spuffy- TV Spuffy, S8 Spuffy, your own version of Spuffy, etc.- as whole-heartedly as ever? Would you be able to ignore the comics? Or would you be so disgusted that it would tarnish your love for any kind of Spuffy and make you want to leave fandom?

I’m not certain what effect it would have on me, but I think my Spuffy love would survive the trauma. Barring a miracle movie or show with all the actors, for me, canon will always have ended with NFA; so while I enjoyed the lovely Spuffy bits in S8, I wasn't and still am not heavily invested in the comics. However, I know there are Spuffy fans who take the comics a heck of a lot more seriously.

In conclusion, thoughts please: Whether you’re a fan of the comics or not, would a Spuffy implosion of Twangel proportions in the comics hurt your love? How do you think it would affect our awesome corner of fandom?

Comments

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

It's also EW!!! Also, I don't get it. No, seriously--I don't find Xander in the least bit attractive. The S1 Willow-has-a-crush-on-him makes total sense, and I liked his dynamic with Cordy for a bit. But I seriously don't understand what everyone else sees in him.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

Well, attractiveness is subjective, i suppose. And, really it was mostly the comics which ramped that up to eleventy (with Redshirt #2, Dawn and Buffy falling over themselves to get into Xander's bed). And season 8 depicted Xander as some kind of american dream (yes, i reference Frank Zappa here). So, fanbois writing for fanbois, i presume. Narcissistic (or: the author wanking in his mind. With Jeanty's "art" as stimulus and the pen as condom).

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Of course it is. Like, I don't find Riley attractive at all, but I know a lot of people do and it makes sense to me that Buffy does. But it's too much of a stretch to me that EVERY SINGLE WOMAN would find Xander attractive. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

So, fanbois writing for fanbois, i presume.

You presume correctly, methinks.

the author wanking in his mind. With Jeanty's "art" as stimulus and the pen as condom

I will never not be laughing at this sentence.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

So, fanbois writing for fanbois, i presume.

The Bander fans I've met are also Chuck fans are also Spiderman fans. The math has been done on this.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

So, fanbois writing for fanbois, i presume.

It's not an uncommon trope for comics, to be honest.

The audience surrogate (whether the kid sidekick or the young hero) starts off as a nerdy-yet-witty-and-lovable-loser, and eventually grows up to be a true superhero (despite comparatively limited or no powers) that all the ladies have the hots for (e.g. Dick Grayson, Bucky Barnes, Peter Parker, Kitty Pryde as a gender-flipped version).

I think the idea behind this is that people (or at least the comics fans) like to believe that if a regular guy like them were thrust into extraordinary circumstances, that they would eventually adapt and mature into the role and achieve stereotypical success (in the shape of power/money/fame/sexual attractiveness/etc). Even if most people would never want to endure horrific tragedy and train/fight on a daily basis, the idea that even a typical loser might have the potential to be a badass and a stud is a compelling one. The idea here is not dissimilar to the one behind The Replacement.

Then again, wish fulfillment is to some degree the driving force behind much of fiction, so it's probably not limited to the comics.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

This is very true. And the fanboys were pandered to in Season 8, in my humble opinion, because Xander was suddenly The Dude every girl wanted - even Buffy (though I'd argue it was the same need for connection that caused her to boink Twangel caused her to think Xander was a viable sexual partner, incestuous as that seems to everyone but Banders).

To me, it all seems pandering. Like I said. Pandering, pandering, pandering.

I like the word pandering.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

And the fanboys were pandered to in Season 8, in my humble opinion, because Xander was suddenly The Dude every girl wanted

Part it was probably also that he was the only young, straight dude around (since Robin was conspicuously absent), but then, that might have been intentional to ensure the fanboy pandering.

though I'd argue it was the same need for connection that caused her to boink Twangel caused her to think Xander was a viable sexual partner, incestuous as that seems to everyone but Banders

Definitely. I think the Bander moments and her relationship with Satsu both demonstrate that Buffy was feeling pretty lonely and isolated.

I like the word pandering.

So it would appear. It's a fun word to say three times fast. :D

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

because Xander was suddenly The Dude every girl wanted

They sort of make fun of this in the first arc of the comics, which pretty much confirms that it's pandering. Buffy dislikes porn? Turn her into a porn star. Admitting it's pandering, doesn't make it not pandering. Having "Team Spike" Andrew say it's ruining everything doesn't make it *not* destructive to the ship, it makes it worse.

S8 embraces a bunch of offensive fanboy tropes. It's like a satire...except at the end of the day, whether you've done it to make a trope, they still turned the characters into everything they were meant to be against. Thus destroying them. It's like, if you're an atheist and you want to make fun of religion by turning God into a crazed lunatic, you still confirmed the existence of God. You derail the whole point.

S8 Buffy exhibits just about every negative female stereotype there is. She's opposite of her characterization for 7 years.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

But I seriously don't understand what everyone else sees in him.

Same, mostly. I wouldn't say no to going on a date with S7 Xander 'cause by then I think he's mostly okay, personality-wise (although by that point I no longer find him physically attractive). Objectively speaking, I think S5 Xander is an attractive catch, but only if I didn't know about all the crap he pulled in earlier years, like the love spell in BBB and the hyena memory-forgetting.

Either way, the fact that every female falls for him eventually is ew, suspicious, and deeply offensive.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Your thoughts are almost mine exactly. He started out cute enough (if not at all my type) but SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON (he's got good qualities, but there are too many moments that make me furious at him for me to really love him), then by the time he finally became a good guy (S7), I'm like you and no longer think he's cute.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I'm like you and no longer think he's cute.

I feel shallow for thinking that way, but how am I supposed to help myself with Spike around for comparison?? :D

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YMMV, of course, on whether it's intentional that the average teenage guy is a horrible person when it comes to dealing with girls.

Yeah, I mean, that's the way that societal conditioning tells teenage boys to act, you're right. It's just...I kind of hate the idea that that's what's typical, you know? I guess I know some really extraordinary guys.

Definitely physical appearance. But the two are really tied closely for me. I can't tell you how many times I started watching a TV show not thinking a character was particularly attractive, but then I got to know that character and suddenly I find him RIDICULOUSLY HOT. And on the flip side of things, if someone's douchey or mean or an ass or whatever, it doesn't matter how hot he is: I instantly find him much less attractive.

I'm probably never going to go from finding someone straight-up unattractive to finding them really hot, even if their personality is awesome. But if the person starts out pretty average, then personality makes all the difference. Does that make any sense at all?

Honest question as a straight male with limited ability to evaluate Xander's attractiveness. =P


I have a question about this. This way of thinking is pretty foreign to me--I have zero problem evaluating which women I think are hot, even though I'm a straight woman. There are some women I find sexy as hell, even though I'm not sexually attracted to them. Now, admittedly, a lot of times the women I think are super hot don't fall in line with conventional wisdom, so take that with a grain of salt. But I'm fascinated by the fact that guys don't seem to be able to judge whether other men are good-looking. Do you personally think it's because you're socially conditioned to not even think that way? Because I would think you'd be able to evaluate someone aesthetically if not from a sexual-attractiveness perspective.

Am I being coherent at all? I'm incredibly interested in this topic. :D

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, that's the way that societal conditioning tells teenage boys to act, you're right. It's just...I kind of hate the idea that that's what's typical, you know? I guess I know some really extraordinary guys.

Or the guys just wouldn't show you that side to them. In my experience, girls are fairly blind to which guys are jerks (and vice versa, with most guys blind to which girls are jerks), and people often speak differently around people of the gender they are attracted to then when not.

I'm probably never going to go from finding someone straight-up unattractive to finding them really hot, even if their personality is awesome. But if the person starts out pretty average, then personality makes all the difference. Does that make any sense at all?

Absolutely. Attractiveness is the sum of both physical and non-physical factors, to different degrees.


Do you personally think it's because you're socially conditioned to not even think that way? Because I would think you'd be able to evaluate someone aesthetically if not from a sexual-attractiveness perspective.

Am I being coherent at all? I'm incredibly interested in this topic. :D

Haha, I understand what you're saying. My theory is that the evaluation of appearance is learned, and that guys simply have very little in the way of practice when it comes to evaluting other guys.

Female social status in our society is primarily driven by physical apperance, and as a consequence, girls learn to evaluate themselves and each other as a critical social skill. By contrast, guys do not need to care anywhere near as much about their own appearances, and bother comparing themselves to other guys due to lack of necessity. Noticeable aversions exist among straight males who work in fashion or the entertainment industry, because they are used to being judged and judging other males in appearance and so have developed that skill.

Personally, I just don't really know what's considered attractive for a guy; it's hard for me to evaluate even my own appearance. While I'm aware that most girls consider me 'cute', this is informed by others, not because I look in the mirror and find myself attractive. I am, however, able to evaluate my physique's attractiveness, since as an athlete I am used to comparing guys on that basis (but even there I am aware that studies have shown that even though most guys think being 'buff' looks good, most girls prefer slimmer 'dancer' type bodies on their men).

In a way, I don't think it's that different from the evaluation of art. If you have little experience critiquing abstract art or poetry or classical music, then it is very difficult to provide aesthetic analysis, beyond perhaps a basic level.

Edit: for clarity

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

and people often speak differently around people of the gender they are attracted to then when not.

This is true. Which on the one hand is a good thing, because it means that they at least know there's something problematic about it. But not so good that it probably comes out in actions.

My theory is that the evaluation of appearance is learned, and that guys simply have very little in the way of practice when it comes to evaluting other guys.

Mine as well. Your thoughts aline with my own.

I wonder if a guy spends more time around girls growing up if he would be better at it? I have one or two straight guy friends who are very comfortable not always playing by enforced gender rules because they grew up with a lot of sisters/girl friends, and they both will answer with which guys they think are attractive when asked (though their answers tend to be more hyper-masculine--Clive Owen and Daniel Craig are two that come to mind that they've mentioned).


In a way, I don't think it's that different from the evaluation of art. If you have little experience critiquing abstract art or poetry or classical music, then it is very difficult to provide aesthetic analysis, beyond perhaps a basic level.

I can see what you're saying, and I agree.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

I wonder if a guy spends more time around girls growing up if he would be better at it? I have one or two straight guy friends who are very comfortable not always playing by enforced gender rules because they grew up with a lot of sisters/girl friends

It probably helps, but I'd say that it's also necessary to interact with them in a way that goes against gender rules. I have more female friends than male friends, but I don't think I spend too much time talking to them about which guys are hot.

they both will answer with which guys they think are attractive when asked (though their answers tend to be more hyper-masculine--Clive Owen and Daniel Craig are two that come to mind that they've mentioned).

Haha, I think it's possible for more guys to answer who we think are attractive, but we might merely not have too much faith in our accuracy and/or we're guessing what girls like based on what we know of cultural standards of masculinity.

I might be willing to do John Barrowman or Johnny Depp though.

[snickfic]

I would like to take this time to say that my dad says I'm incapable of telling whether another woman is pretty because I'm a woman, and therefore my opinion of her beauty is invalid. Which DRIVES ME CRAZY.

RRR RRR RRR.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

He started out cute enough (if not at all my type) but SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON (he's got good qualities, but there are too many moments that make me furious at him for me to really love him)

I'd argue he starts out as a 'typical' teenage boy, as befits his intended everyman status. YMMV, of course, on whether it's intentional that the average teenage guy is a horrible person when it comes to dealing with girls.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Someone on one of the Whedon coms I follow on LJ posted the first part of a very x-rated Bander fic for all to see, then put the rest under the cut. There were quivering members and wet cores involved. I needed to bleach my brain, and then I thought of you, because I knew you'd have the same reaction.