Reaction to #7
Mar. 14th, 2012 12:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gryfndor_godessI don’t know if I can say I love the Spuffy because I’m not pleased with how naïve Buffy is acting, but I did like it. I do love how Spike is finally sticking up for himself. I don’t see his statement that he’s going to leave as a “threat” or as Nice Guy behavior. Just as Buffy has every right to not want to be in a relationship, he has every right to not be satisfied with only friendship and pursue something else instead. I appreciate that he’s finally being honest with her.
Also, I feel so vindicated by “’Cause I don’t want to be the dark place you run to when things aren’t working” because I hated that "dark place" line back in #40 and everyone else was like, “OH MY GOD IT’S THE BEST THING EVER.” No, I really think it’s not. That was not Buffy telling Spike she needed and wanted him in her life. That was Buffy telling Spike she needed him when she was miserable and wanted to wallow. Big difference. I’m really freaking glad that Spike is calling her on it.
The one thing I didn’t like about their conversation on the ship was when he told her she wasn’t allowed to slay. If she were keeping the baby, I could understand it. If she were three months pregnant and about to have an abortion, I could understand it. But only a few weeks pregnant and about to have an abortion? Spike just comes off as rude and controlling.
So about Buffy, I’m displeased with how naïve she acts about Spike’s love for her. I have to keep reminding myself that this is not S7!Buffy. Because S7!Buffy? She wouldn’t be so obtuse. She might try to ignore his feelings or lie to herself, but if Spike actually broached the subject, she wouldn’t be able to keep up the façade.
However, S9!Buffy is not S7!Buffy, and I just have to remember that when reading. Truthfully, I don’t love S9!Buffy. I feel sorry for her, sure, and I like her enough, but she doesn’t hold a candle to Real Buffy. Spike is by far my favorite character in the comics, whereas in the show, Buffy and Spike are tied.
Anyway, I guess S9!Buffy’s reactions are realistic enough. (they match her attitude toward him in 8.40, and I’m glad about that consistency). I’m not surprised that she reneges on what she said about wanting to run away with him.
Things I did really like:
-Dowling and Cheung.
-The humor, like the closet space, the bugs saying her arm will grow back, European sockets vs. bug sockets, etc. The dialogue felt snappier and more BtVS-like than usual.
-That we finally had a relationship conversation, even if it didn’t necessarily end the way I wanted.
-I love that Spike called the doctor for her. But seriously: Buffy, you depend on Spike to call the doctor to schedule your abortion and you think he couldn’t be a “normal” part of your life? You’re an idiot.
-“You ever see me with the kidlets?” Aadlfkjaldkfjalkdfj! Spike wants to be a dad!!!
-I love page 8. I think Buffy is an enormous jerk for saying, “But, Spike, if I were trying to have a normal life…you’d be exactly what I’d be running from,” but I appreciate that it seems to match S9!Buffy’s characterization, and I LOVE that for once Spike gets angry and leaves (that close-up of his face is excellent) (this was also the first time I almost teared up at the comics; the second was at the end when he said he didn’t want to be her dark place).
-Basically, I love that Spike is standing up for himself. Which is not to say that I think he was being a wuss or anything in previous issues; I think it was rational for him not to broach the subject, and given their past, I’d completely understand if he never felt comfortable making the first move. But I do love seeing him confront her on the "normal" issue (and I love the implication that Koh and Dowling both had an effect on him). “I can give you what you need. I want normal, too. And I want it with you” makes me ADLFKJADLKFJALFKJALDFJALKDJFADFKJADLKF. I love him so much in this issue. SO MUCH.
I adore everything he says from “You really going to make me say what everyone else already worked out?” up until “And I want it with you.” It’s all so honest and reasonable and realistic. I really think he’s the best-written character in the comics* (and he’s drawn REALLY well, too; his tearing-up eyes on pg 21? GAH).
*Except for this: I cannot believe how blase Spike is on the last page: "Trust me, luv. I know my way around a Buffybot. And you are definitely one." REALLY, Spike?!? That's your reaction? Why aren't you flabbergasted?
And possibly the part where he tells her she can’t slay. I definitely think overprotective!Spike is realistic, but I’m not sure he would ever actually order Buffy around like that.*
“That’s not why I fought to get my soul back.”
ADLFKJADLFJADLFKJLADKFJLAKSDFLADJFLKADJFLKSADJFLAKJFAS.
And on the ending:
I hate the ending. It is absurd to me that Buffy could have "lost" her body and been turned into a robot without her knowledge, especially since magic is supposedly still gone. It is ridiculous that Spike couldn’t tell she wasn't human (you could wank it that she smelled different and he just assumed it was because she was pregnant; but basically there's no way to handle this without wanking it to a laughable extent). It is horribly offensive that this is how Joss could carry out the pregnancy storyline: Buffy is in a robot while her real body gestates the baby- that way she can keep slaying! And she doesn’t have to have an abortion! (Because heaven forbid Joss actually carry through on that; no, he wants to have his “feminist” cake and eat it too, claim that Buffy would have gotten an abortion but then magically doesn’t have to; yeah, we’re not buying it, jerk, go eat Hypocrite Cake instead.) Also, I’ve heard that Doctor Who did something similar with the Ponds? I don’t know, as I haven’t watched it, but that’s even grosser if Joss is stealing storylines. Also, even if Buffy hadn’t been pregnant, this is STILL A HUGE BODILY VIOLATION. Seriously, every single aspect of this robot storyline is horrifically offensive so far.
Basically, I hate the last two pages and wish they didn’t exist.
If I had to theorize what happened, I’d guess that she slept with Heinrich/the Master at the party, he impregnated her with the Seed, and then he switched her body to make sure she couldn’t abort the Seed. Although Andrew’s probably involved? But I don’t want Andrew to be a bad guy. :(
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Date: 2012-03-14 04:27 pm (UTC)I was going to say things and ask questions about Buffy and Spike's interaction, but then I got to that last bit and all I can do is say
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?
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Date: 2012-03-14 04:38 pm (UTC)I miss the show.
But until the ending, the rest of the issue was satisfying. I mean, the Spuffy stuff was depressing on Buffy's side of things, but it was fantastic on Spike's. I have mixed feelings b/c on the one hand, the relationship conversation is decently written, but OTOH, the lack of resolution is incredibly frustrating. Joss is never going to let Buffy and Spike be happy together in a lasting relationship, and I'm sick of the waffling and stringing us along.
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Date: 2012-03-14 05:52 pm (UTC)True, although he is evil there, and her day job was hunting his kind. I always thought it was a bit weird, too.
well hell it's Buffy and Spike being declarative about feelings which is never not worth seeing.
That was gratifying, even though I didn't like the outcome.
s7!Buffy is Buffy to me.
Exactly! S9!Buffy is lamentably foreign to me.
There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on here.
Great way to describe it.
in my head!canon he's totally the kind of guy who wants to be a dad anyway
Oh, yeah, that's definitely mine, too. I think it was easy to make that assumption even before the comics. And even if he weren't a parental type in general, he'd definitely be that way for Buffy's baby.
And he's pretty much unconcerned? Fuck Chambliss and Whedon for pissing all over Spike's reaction to the bot in Bargaining. I loved those scenes so much and now this. /rages
THIS.
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Date: 2012-03-14 06:32 pm (UTC)Yeah, I mean, I'd even be "okay" with Buffy telling Spike flat-out she doesn't want him that way (I wouldn't be happy about it, obviously). I'm not okay with the writers contriving to prolong and stall the resolution as they did here. It reeks of silly rom-com tropes.
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Date: 2012-03-16 02:20 pm (UTC)I think Buffy is realizing that she isn't cut out for "normal" and that she doesn't even really want "normal".
Also: I love and unashamedly continue to love the "dark place" line (which was in #37, not #40). I don't want Spike to be "normal", I don't want Buffy to be "normal", whatever the heck that means. I don't want them to turn into the couple from the cover.
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Date: 2012-03-14 05:14 pm (UTC)There's robot!Buffy and... some other Buffy? One of which is pregnant? Maybe? I feel I need a point-by-point explanation, possibly with diagrams, before I can even start to react.
Does anyone know where I might find such a thing? (Because heaven forbid I actually go hunt down the issue and read it. :P)
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Date: 2012-03-14 05:41 pm (UTC)Exactly. It was revealed at the end of this issue that Buffy is actually a robot (a zompire ripped off her arm, revealing all the circuitry). We don't know when she was switched, though. So it's possible that she's been a robot the whole time and was never pregnant, or it's possible that she was switched very recently and her body is somewhere gestating the baby. :/ Either way, it's awful. I'm betting on the second scenario because (a) why would a robot think it was pregnant in the first place and (b) why would Joss make the pregnancy a non-issue when he can write a horrible, misogynistic storyline about it?
Stormwreath's reviews normally go through the issue point-by-point. His isn't up yet, but I'd check that out in the next few days. It won't be brief, but it will give you all the gory details.
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Date: 2012-03-14 05:44 pm (UTC)Why oh why did I delete my S8 icon. I knew I wasn't done using it...
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Date: 2012-03-14 06:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 07:39 pm (UTC)Is this the new stupidest plotline ever? I'm leaning towards yes, but possibly that's just because I've forgotten things.
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Date: 2012-03-14 07:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 07:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 05:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 05:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 06:31 pm (UTC)He needs to watch Friday Night Lights, basically.
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Date: 2012-03-14 06:34 pm (UTC)And interestingly, isn't Dollhouse the show that he was least involved in (besides possibly AtS)? I thought that was more of an equal partnership with his brother and SIL. So for all we know, maybe they fought for Tony/Priya...
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Date: 2012-03-14 07:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 07:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-15 02:01 am (UTC)And you can see how Dollhouse is spilling over into Buffy now. You could see it back in Season 8, too.
Andrew = Topher. Topher = Andrew. (And both are Dr. Horrible.)
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Date: 2012-03-15 02:21 am (UTC)I'd argue that Firefly is his baby more than any other show besides Buffy. That's the one that he still talks about wanting to do a decade later.
But yeah, "Whedon's brain to the nth degree" is a good way of describing DH. I dunno, I feel like I read years ago back when it was on air that Jed and Maurissa actually did a lot of the day-to-day work for the show. My impression was that Joss came up with the plot and themes but wasn't actually involved much in the mechanics of it. I could be wrong, though.
Andrew = Topher. Topher = Andrew. (And both are Dr. Horrible.)
Yeeeaaahhh. And it makes me sad because I was starting to really like Andrew. :/ Oh well. At least I still have
real!Andrewshow!Andrew.no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 07:41 pm (UTC)YES! THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT, SPIKE!
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Date: 2012-03-14 07:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 10:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 10:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-14 11:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-15 05:19 am (UTC)I do wonder though if the switch did happen the night at the party and this is a whole metaphor on growing up and making bad choices and losing yourself to those choices. Maybe Buffy isn't pregnant, or maybe she is. But I do think this going to be about Buffy regaining agency and I'm happy to know that Spike is going to the person that helps her find herself in the end (I think). What that means for them romantically, I have no idea. But in the end if I can say that Spike ultimately helped Buffy in a way no other has helped her and we get no more Spuffy after season 9 I will be content enough to feel satisfied with it.
But, on the flip side, when Buffy does regain her agency/herself/etc, what will happen? Because if the story is to continue Joss is going to continue bringing Buffy pain. I can only see the season ending in two ways, happy ending/Buffy's story ending with season 10 being transitional (maybe if she's pregnant, time jump where the story becomes about Buffy's child) or basically waving in a new era of Buffy storytelling (because I find it hard to think of them continuing telling Buffy's story with out spreading the butter too thin, "Buffy the 90 year old vampire slayer, will she finally marry!?"). Or ultimate suckage, like Buffy being flung into another dimension (she finds herself and is finally ready to tackle the whole new world of regular life but metaphorically she is literally flung into a whole new "world" where she learns to adjust, etc. Or something other utterly depressing thought. At least Allie said no one dies.
As for Spike/Spuffy...I'm still at a loss. Sometimes I feel like a happy ending/beginning is waiting for them and sometimes I feel like season 9 will be the last we'll see of our ship in canon.
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Date: 2012-03-27 03:42 am (UTC)Oh gosh, spuffy shippers are going to be bi-polar by the end of 9 aren't they? (I think it's too late for me!)
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Date: 2012-03-16 08:54 pm (UTC)Ooh, really? When did he say that?
Sometimes I feel like a happy ending/beginning is waiting for them and sometimes I feel like season 9 will be the last we'll see of our ship in canon.
THIS. Except I'm not sure I ever really foresee a happy "ending" for them. I want one, and I don't think it would be unrealistic at all, but I don't think Joss goes by realism when he could string shippers along instead. I think the latter is a more likely possibility; I could see Buffy rejecting him and saying she just wants to be friends and that be the driving force behind giving Spike a series of his own during S10. Spike saying that he wasn't going to stick around if all she wanted was friendship could be setting up his departure from the series. :/
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Date: 2012-03-27 03:56 am (UTC)My terms of happy ending for them is them getting together but things always come up and they bicker a lot. I seriously would feel way too tired if Joss deliberately strings us along. Beating a dead horse? No thanks, either pull out my heart completely or let it end. I can see Joss doing bittersweet, a la something like Wes/Fred or Chosen.
I just can't see Buffy rejecting Spike because she doesn't have feelings for him. I can see her rejecting him because of those feelings and that he should leave because it would hurt too much for her (because she wants normal and he really isn't, or some BS)...a reverse bangel. They can't be friends because they have feelings and Buffy doesn't want to date a vampire or something like that.
As for Spike having his own series, there could be ways to leave spuffy hanging at the end with him leaving, but I don't prefer that. Or we could have a time skip and Spike's series takes place before his return in season 8? (Him chasing the Senior partners with his bugs or something.)
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Date: 2012-04-05 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-04-06 05:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-15 05:49 pm (UTC)That was my initial reaction, too, except I used words much stronger than "jerk." :-P But, when I went over it again and thought about everything she's been saying lately (e.g., she fails at normal, she's not ready for responsibility), I think she was trying to say that she isn't looking for "normal." She tried normal with the job and friends and apartment, but all that went to pot. She wound up living with a vampire on an inter-dimensional-traveling spaceship, complaining about giant insect legs littering her room. I think maybe she's beginning to realize that "normal" isn't her cup of tea, but she said it in the complete the wrong way. She realizes she screwed up, but it's too late. If someone had said those words to me, I would have heard them exactly as Spike did. I admire his ability to walk away; I probably would have throttled her. :-P
“I can give you what you need. I want normal, too. And I want it with you” makes me ADLFKJADLKFJALFKJALDFJALKDJFADFKJADLKF.
I know, right? Any woman who doesn't swoon at those words would have to be made of stone...or, you know, plastic and wires. :-P
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Date: 2012-03-15 08:06 pm (UTC)Yeah... I can see Buffy phrasing something innocuous in a way that seemed hurtful, but I have a hard time seeing that in this situation. I don't think she meant to hurt him or be mean, but I don't think the sentiment is innocuous; her tone seems very sincere, as though she really thinks that Spike couldn't be an integral part of a normal life.
I'm also confused because in the previous issue she said she couldn't have a child right now because her human life was in such shambles, whereas here, it seems she's back to thinking that having a child is impossible because she's a slayer ("If I was going to flout every slayer instinct..."). The way she described it last issue, her slayer instincts and motherhood were compatible because she had support from him, Dawn, Xander, etc.; it was the "Buffy" part of her that wasn't ready. So maybe her implication is supposed to be that she'd be okay with daddy!Spike if she were still slaying and they weren't going for "normal." But that's a very convoluted way of thinking, and even if that is her thought process, I still doubt she actually understands him and how he's changed because this-
But, Spike, if I were trying to have a normal life...you'd be exactly what I'd be running from"
-is flat out wrong. She'd be running from the monsters. Spike's not a monster anymore.
Even if she didn't want a normal life for herself, it's still pretty awful to imply that Spike couldn't be normal." I'm sure there are lots of normal human women besides Buffy who would take him the way he is (*raises hand*). :/
I don't know any of that makes sense. I'm having trouble describing my thoughts. Which I guess makes sense since the page itself is not clear. :)
Any woman who doesn't swoon at those words would have to be made of stone...or, you know, plastic and wires. :-P
HEE! :D
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Date: 2012-03-16 02:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-16 04:30 pm (UTC)So while I'm sure Buffy didn't mean to hurt him, and I don't know if she aspires to be normal or what her context is, I think that yes, the statement "you're not normal" is inherently offensive.
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Date: 2012-03-16 05:43 pm (UTC)nor·mal
[nawr-muhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
2.
serving to establish a standard.
3.
Psychology .
a.
approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment.
b.
free from any mental disorder; sane.
So, according to one of the definitions in psychology, exceptional intelligence, for instance, would make one not normal.
Here we're talking about "normal life". What is normal life? Life that conforms to some common standards, ordinary life. Does everyone want to have a normal life? Not really. Lots of people wants to have extraordinary lives. Lots of people lead a normal life and find it boring and unsatisfying. It's usually those who feel denied "normalcy" that even put it forth as something good and desirable. But a lot of people who do have normal lives would like something different. And some people chose not to have a normal life because it doesn't appeal to them. The idea that normal life is something that everyone should strive to conform to is... well, conformist.
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Date: 2012-03-16 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-16 09:03 pm (UTC)I agree it's miscommunication, though, and Spike's reading is easy to see, and it's completely unsurprising that he felt offended.
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Date: 2012-03-17 06:28 pm (UTC)THIIIIIIIIIIIS. I haven't actually read the comics in ages, but this was something that really irked me about the
#40or #37 or whenever it was discussion.And pretty much WORD to all your robo-Buffy thoughts. I can't even with Joss anymore.
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Date: 2012-03-18 12:12 am (UTC)Really glad I'm not alone!
And pretty much WORD to all your robo-Buffy thoughts. I can't even with Joss anymore.
It's a shame because it could potentially be a really interesting storyline (I've seen fic where Buffy's consciousness has to be put in a bot and it's extremely poignant/dark/intriguing), but I don't trust Joss anymore, especially if there's a baby involved. :(