The Buffyverse Hate/Love Post

[gryfndor_godess]

This is going to sound weirdly motivational and maybe preachy (apologies), but it’s almost 1:00 AM and I can’t sleep and I had an idea that I really, really want to try:

I’ve been feeling a lot of pent-up anger the past few days over politics, and I suspect I will continue to feel that way until we know for sure that the government isn’t going to shut down on August 2nd, and I’d like to release a little of that aggression in a non-harmful way by aiming it at the aspects of the Buffyverse that fill me with me with loathing. And since I don’t like spreading hatred and I really like finding silver linings that help me appreciate something that would otherwise only make me unhappy, I want to mix this hate up with love.

So here’s how it works:

Comment with something you hate about the Buffyverse. It can be anything except a character or writer (basically, a person). “I hate when Riley does x” is fine, but simply saying “I hate Riley/Dawn/Xander” is not. Same goes for the writers. Y’all know that I am no stranger to lambasting Joss Whedon for some of his choices, but now is not the time for saying “I hate Joss” either. Now is the time for saying something like, “I hate what Joss did to Cordelia in AtS S4.”

Here’s the challenge: For everything you hate about the Buffyverse, come up with something that resulted from it that you love. It can be a direct result or an extremely indirect result.

Examples:

1. “I hate that Angelus killed Jenny when she and Giles were about to reconnect and possibly consummate their love; I hate that we didn’t get to see the slow, sweet, mature love story they could have had; I hate that they didn’t get to have beautiful babies and grow old together and that Buffy and Willow didn’t get to be bridesmaids at their wedding (‘cause you know they would have been and they would have been adorable) and that Giles wasn’t forced to ask Xander to be his best man for lack of other male acquaintances.

However, I love the heartbreak and power of “Passion,” the emotions it evokes, the thoroughly unexpected shock of Angelus breaking Jenny’s neck, the awful imagery of Giles finding her on his bed, Giles going after Angelus, and Buffy crying to Giles and needing him to stay with her at the end.”

2. “I hate what the writers did to Cordelia in AtS S4. However, I love that we got the Spike-and-Angel proto-bromance in S5.”

I’m going to start off with a few comments about the things I hate and the things they result in that I love. Share your own hate/love stories, add something else you love to someone else’s hate, tell others how much you agree with them, write a comment!fic on what could have been! The only other rule besides not bashing a character/writer in and of him/herself is don’t judge other people for what they hate or love.

Find that silver lining!

Comments

[lutamira]

I'm glad to hear that about Spike and the Fang Gang. Makes me slightly less apprehensive about starting S5. :)

As for pre-Gift Scoobie treatment of Spike - yes, I allow for it too, even though it makes me mad sometimes. But when Giles is still trying to assassinate him two seasons later? Yikes!

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Giles's behavior toward Spike in S7 fascinates me. His animosity confuses me a little because he actually seems to tolerate Spike much more than the other Scoobies in S4 (I love when Spike lives with him). Plus, I'd think that the scholar in him would be fascinated by and intensely curious about Spike's decision to fight for his soul. Giles makes a big deal in S7 about how Spike is dangerous, but I think his animosity must go deeper than that- his dislike of Spike seems too personal, and it only really revs up when Spike is actually becoming sane again post the First's torture. This is hardly an original thought, but I think Giles really does feel threatened by Buffy's reliance on Spike and sees Spike as usurping his position as her confidante. Perhaps he realizes, as he should, what a mistake he made in leaving her in S6. I also wonder if Giles' Watcher training actually contributes to his dislike- instead of wanting to study Spike, perhaps he, like Buffy in earlier seasons, cannot fathom the idea of a "good" vampire and in fact doesn't want to understand it because it would destroy his black and white view of the world. That would explain why he tolerates chipped, soulless Spike but mistreats souled!Spike. I usually think about Buffy's world view, but as a Watcher, Giles' must be just as, if not more, black and white in order for him to do his job.

That was a complete tangent, obviously, but Spike and Giles together really interest me. :)

[lutamira]

These are such good thoughts. I hadn't really taken the time to analyze Giles' behavior in S7 too much - mostly I've just gone for the Well, obviously the writers were on crack because that is not Giles route rather than try to ferret out in-character explanations. That said, everything you say makes a ton of sense, especially this bit:

I also wonder if Giles' Watcher training actually contributes to his dislike- instead of wanting to study Spike, perhaps he, like Buffy in earlier seasons, cannot fathom the idea of a "good" vampire and in fact doesn't want to understand it because it would destroy his black and white view of the world.

I can definitely see this - the more Spike redeems himself, the less Giles trusts him because obviously vampire=bad so Spike must just be dissembling and still truly evil. And, Giles tolerated him around while Spike was honest about being evil, and while Giles was sure Buffy was thoroughly convinced of his evilness, but when it looks like Buffy is trusting him, he steps in and gets all patriarchal. (That is basically what you just said, isn't it ?)

Hmmm. Guess I have to give up on my long-standing plan to pretend that the Giles of S7 was really an incarnation of The First all along... :)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

(That is basically what you just said, isn't it ?)

Yup, except I'm not even sure Giles thinks Spike is dissembling- I think he just doesn't want to accept that vampires can change because then he would face the same moral dilemma that Buffy theoretically faces (is she slaughtering hundreds of demons who could also be redeemed, who also have feelings and are not just killing machines); that's what I mean by his Watcher-ness affecting him, that he's been brought up with the same black-and-white moral code that Buffy uses as the Slayer. Regardless of thoughts of dissembling, Giles obviously doesn't trust Spike, but I think Giles knows it's the trigger and not Spike's free will that's to blame; unlike Buffy, though, Giles isn't willing to give him the time he needs to fix his problem. Put down the dog while it's dangerous rather that wait for a cure, etc...

Guess I have to give up on my long-standing plan to pretend that the Giles of S7 was really an incarnation of The First all along... :)

:) That would have been interesting psychologically if Giles had been the First, but I do really like how Buffy stands up for herself and throws off his guidance. I mean, I don't like his behavior in S7, but given what he did in S6, I'm actually glad that he is the way he is in S7 because it gives Buffy the incentive to flourish on her own. I would have been more upset if after his callous abandonment in S6 she welcomed him back with open arms and did everything he said.