The Buffyverse Hate/Love Post

[gryfndor_godess]

This is going to sound weirdly motivational and maybe preachy (apologies), but it’s almost 1:00 AM and I can’t sleep and I had an idea that I really, really want to try:

I’ve been feeling a lot of pent-up anger the past few days over politics, and I suspect I will continue to feel that way until we know for sure that the government isn’t going to shut down on August 2nd, and I’d like to release a little of that aggression in a non-harmful way by aiming it at the aspects of the Buffyverse that fill me with me with loathing. And since I don’t like spreading hatred and I really like finding silver linings that help me appreciate something that would otherwise only make me unhappy, I want to mix this hate up with love.

So here’s how it works:

Comment with something you hate about the Buffyverse. It can be anything except a character or writer (basically, a person). “I hate when Riley does x” is fine, but simply saying “I hate Riley/Dawn/Xander” is not. Same goes for the writers. Y’all know that I am no stranger to lambasting Joss Whedon for some of his choices, but now is not the time for saying “I hate Joss” either. Now is the time for saying something like, “I hate what Joss did to Cordelia in AtS S4.”

Here’s the challenge: For everything you hate about the Buffyverse, come up with something that resulted from it that you love. It can be a direct result or an extremely indirect result.

Examples:

1. “I hate that Angelus killed Jenny when she and Giles were about to reconnect and possibly consummate their love; I hate that we didn’t get to see the slow, sweet, mature love story they could have had; I hate that they didn’t get to have beautiful babies and grow old together and that Buffy and Willow didn’t get to be bridesmaids at their wedding (‘cause you know they would have been and they would have been adorable) and that Giles wasn’t forced to ask Xander to be his best man for lack of other male acquaintances.

However, I love the heartbreak and power of “Passion,” the emotions it evokes, the thoroughly unexpected shock of Angelus breaking Jenny’s neck, the awful imagery of Giles finding her on his bed, Giles going after Angelus, and Buffy crying to Giles and needing him to stay with her at the end.”

2. “I hate what the writers did to Cordelia in AtS S4. However, I love that we got the Spike-and-Angel proto-bromance in S5.”

I’m going to start off with a few comments about the things I hate and the things they result in that I love. Share your own hate/love stories, add something else you love to someone else’s hate, tell others how much you agree with them, write a comment!fic on what could have been! The only other rule besides not bashing a character/writer in and of him/herself is don’t judge other people for what they hate or love.

Find that silver lining!

Comments

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I hate that Dawn and Spike’s friendship never recovers in S7.

I love that Dawn is such an unreserved BAMF about protecting Buffy in “Beneath You” with her “You’ll wake up on fire” threat.

[spuffy-noelle.livejournal.com]

I completely agree, I loved Dawn and Spike's friendship in S5 & 6, but it did force her to grow up in S7.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

WORD to all of this.

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

*vigorous nodding*

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I hate how “As You Were” depicts Riley as a white knight who saves Buffy from herself and from the Evil "Doctor" Spike while never holding him accountable for his own major character flaws and mistakes in S5.

I love that Riley isn’t entirely out of the picture after S5 because otherwise Buffy wouldn’t be able to contact him to remove Spike’s chip and we wouldn’t have the spectacular line (and delivery of- the guest star’s expression! Buffy and Spike’s reactions!), “ We’re here to provide you anything you need to help…assface here. Those were his exact words, ma’am.”

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

YES. I cannot STAND that episode and it makes me viscerally angry, but BUFFY CHOOSES TO TAKE SPIKE'S CHIP OUT AND SHOWS HER TRUST IN HIIIIIIIM. LOVE.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I hate that Angelus killed Jenny when she and Giles were about to reconnect and possibly consummate their love; I hate that we didn’t get to see the slow, sweet, mature love story they could have had; I hate that they didn’t get to have beautiful babies and grow old together and that Buffy and Willow didn’t get to be bridesmaids at their wedding (‘cause you know they would have been and they would have been adorable) and that Giles wasn’t forced to ask Xander to be his best man for lack of other male acquaintances.

However, I love the heartbreak and power of “Passion,” the emotions it evokes, the thoroughly unexpected shock of Angelus breaking Jenny’s neck, the awful imagery of Giles finding her on his bed, Giles going after Angelus, and Buffy crying to Giles and needing him to stay with her at the end.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I hate that Xander and Willow regress as characters and hurt Cordelia and Oz when they cheat in S3.

I love that their cheating results in “The Wish,” “Doppelgangland,” and Anya Christina Emmanuella Jenkins.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

You are just speaking my mind over and over here.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

'kay. I'm gonna go early so I can pick this very obvious and easy one:

I hate that Fred gets fridged (just like every other woman on Angel) after a lame, "oh, now she'll be happy in love — or at least make Wes happy, whatevs — psych!" moment, and that all the menfolk get to be drippy and heartbroken about it in a way that makes my skin crawl.

But: Illyria! I love everything about Illyria. From the fawning minion to the greatest Illyria moment of all, when she breaks all our hearts by putting on Fred drag for the Burkles. Oh. My.

[snickfic]

Yep yep yep. *nods*

ETA: Plus it occurs to me that eventually it's Wes who dies and Illyria who gets to be drippy and heartbroken, in her own way. I'd never noticed that symmetry before.

[pennydrdful.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this!

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

I HATE the execution of the AR in "Seeing Red". I hate that Sarah and James were exploited in that way; I hate the intentionally triggery way in which the scene was shot and directed; I hate that Buffy's character was victimized to serve the man's story.

However, I LOVE that it spurred Spike to fight to reclaim his soul. I love that Spike recognized for himself that he wasn't okay, and that he was willing to sacrifice everything to achieve self-actualization. I love the church scene in "Beneath You" with the power of a million suns.

[smells_corrupt.livejournal.com]

damn it you stole mine :)

[lutamira]

I hate that every time someone shows up who doesn't quite fit the Scooby definition of okay, they feel totally justified in being mean, snarky and exclusionary toward them. Sometimes they justify it because the other person is evil or antagonistic, but mostly, they just appear too secure in their position as 'the ones who do good' to notice outsiders. Or they are too certain that it is they who are the excluded few that they forget that they form their own powerful in-group. This callousness happens early on with Cordelia (after she breaks up with Xander), it is the impetus for Faith going bad (seriously? you are gonna let a traumatized 17-year-old girl live alone in a crappy hotel room? wtf people?), it is something nearly unbelievable about the Spike arc (what would have happened if they'd actually believed in him and helped him when he was trying to be good, especially in S6 after he'd been around, helping, caring ALL SUMMER while Buffy was dead?), and then the habit gets all transferred and it happens to Lorne on AtS (Oh, your bar got destroyed for the umpteenth time and it was our fault, whatevs bro, it's your problem. You are scared to go home because you think they'll kill you? We don't give a shit.) I dunno if it happens to Spike on AtS because I haven't watched S5 yet, but I kind of suspect that it will.

Silver lining? Maybe that this is a pretty accurate representation of reality? Even the good guys can treat vulnerable others poorly, and in fact can sometimes do so with feelings of impunity because they feel secure in their goodness?

Possible silver lining #2: it allows the excluded characters to have more independent, interesting arcs? (sometimes?) (maybe?)

[snickfic]

I just want to jump in here and say the Scoobs do it to Kathy Newman, too. I mean, she totally was a soul-sucking demon, but they didn't know that. The fact that she irons her pants and listens to Celine is indictment enough.

[snickfic]

I hate SR, not especially or specifically for the AR, which I could have dealt with in isolation, but for the effects the episode has (particularly on Spike, Buffy, Spike/Buffy, Willow, Jonathan-Andrew, and Spike-Dawn) all the way through the end of the show, none of which I like or find terribly interesting or well-handled.

Silver lining: it gave us Spike's identity crisis and his soul quest, and it gave us the church scene in Beneath You. I will never get over loving any of those things.

[lutamira]

... the effects the episode has (particularly on Spike, Buffy, Spike/Buffy, Willow, Jonathan-Andrew, and Spike-Dawn) all the way through the end of the show

I have to chime in and add Xander to your list of characters, as, for me, his absolute worst moment in the entire seven seasons of the show come when he decides to take on responsibility for announcing the AR to Dawn (and maybe others?) without Buffy's permission, and in fact, in major violation of her agency and her trust. I've not been able to like him since, no matter how endearing he may be in earlier seasons.

[smells_corrupt.livejournal.com]

Hate: the timing of Dru's return to vamp Darla. The scene with Darla/Angel in her motel after he goes through all the trials, when Darla seems to come to terms with her humanity and impending death, and she and Angel seem like, after 200 years, they've reached a place where they can accept what they mean to each other. And then Lindsay and Dru burst in and that's the end of that.

Love: We get Dru-Darla vampire shenanigans, the twisted, mutually destructive Angel/Darla and the exploration of how dark Angel can go even with his soul.

So I'm writing a comment!fic...

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Darla doesn't want to spend her last days (her actual last days, this time) on the planet sitting behind the receptionist desk in Angel's hotel and listening to his friends bitch about her very existence; she doesn't want to again feel the pain of the disease that the Master's bite had once cured (forestalled); she doesn't want to listen to Angel's apologies and his meaningless promises to find another answer. Sometimes she daydreams of ending it immediately so she won't have to put up with any of it anymore.

But a sunrise won't do the trick and anything more seems too bothersome.

And when she finally dies, probably on some long, cold night, shivering and aching in bed, she does want Angel by her side.

[annegables.livejournal.com]

Since Cordelia's personality rewrite has been mentioned already - I will go with: I detest how Joss and his posse write amazing characters and stories that really reach people and affect them and then turn around and destroy the story and characters in a vainglorious attempt to appear amusing. Yes, poking fun at oneself gently is fun and amusing for all involved but to actually try to rewrite canon is no fun for anyone. IE: Angel saying he told Buffy with his eyes to kill him?? Seriously - after Sarah's amazing work with that scene?

The positive is that we did get these amazing stories from these writers in the first place!

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Another example of messing with characterization for a laugh is how it turns out to have been Xander who summoned Sweet in OMWF- he summoned a demon and people died! And he's never held accountable!

Silver lining for that, same as yours...OMWF is such an unbelievably fantastic episode!

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

I hate that Giles left Buffy in S6 when she so clearly needed his support. I hate that Giles wasn't at Xander and Anya's wedding. I hate that he wasn't around to keep an eye on Willow.

The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that he needed some time and space to deal with his own emotional turmoil in the face of Buffy's death and resurrection. And he came back.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

YES. Oh man, Giles loses pretty much all my sympathy after S5. He abandoned every single person who depended on him, including a 15-year-old orphan- that upsets me almost as much as his abandonment of Buffy. What galls me even more is how Buffy (although I really think it's the writers using her as a mouthpiece rather realistic characterization) condones his actions at the end of S6 when he starts to apologize for having left. At least we get the adorable scene where Anya hugs him and tells him not to die.

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

I despise how Cordelia's character was destroyed. I hate how her body was used and then discarded. I hate that the thing controlling her body made her sleep with Connor, kill Lilah, ruin her friendships.

I did like Gina Torres as Jasmine.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I like Gina Torres as anything. I could watch her play any role on earth and love it. Why is she so awesome?

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I HATEHATEHATEHATEHATEHATE the ultimatum Riley gives Buffy in "Into the Woods" and Xander's speech that follows it. SHUT UP, XANDER HARRIS.

However: I love that it's his catalyst for realizing that he really does love Anya and needs to be upfront with her about it.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Plus, we get the scene where Anya and Xander are in bed and she tells him that she needs tons of forewarning and a bomb-like countdown where everything works out in the end if he plans to break up with her is SO wonderful.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I hate Xander leaving Anya at the altar in "Hell's Bells." It seems lazy writing to me, because it seems to me that most weddings on TV (that aren't at the very end of a show) get called off because the writers don't know how to write actual marriages, and it pisses me off. Also, it hurts Anya so very, very much and we're supposed to sympathize with Xander? I do not.

However: the scene between Buffy and Spike is PERFECT and it makes my heart ache in all the best ways. "But it hurts?"/"Yeah."/"Thanks."

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

It seems lazy writing to me, because it seems to me that most weddings on TV (that aren't at the very end of a show) get called off because the writers don't know how to write actual marriages, and it pisses me off.

Good point!

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I hate that Gunn gets very little to do for the majority of AtS and I hate that it's clear that the writers had no idea what to do with him

However: I love his arc in S5 and how well-constructed it is. It makes sense, and it's excellent (blaming him for Fred's death aside because: not his fault).

[catbirdfish.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes.

[eris-raine.livejournal.com]

I do agree with a lot of what other people said, I'd like to add my own to it as well - I hate how they killed off Doyle in the first season, I adored the character and would've loved to see how things progressed there.

I did love how they mentioned him in season five and remembered him like that, it was a nice touch since some shows don't mention killed off characters again. I also loved the friendship between Doyle and Angel :-)

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

:( Yeah. Doyle was gone too soon. I've read that Glenn Quinn had a drug problem and that the writers essentially killed him off because they had to stop working with the actor, not because they had actually planned to go that route with the character. Unfortunate circumstances all around.

I, too, really appreciate that they don't forget Doyle's memory, as the Scoobies seem to forget about Oz and Cordy on BtVS once they leave. Another silver lining for me is that I adore Wesley in S1 as Doyle's replacement.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I hate with passion that we've never seen Xander deal with Jesse's death, Faith's attempted rape, the loss of his eye. Hate, hate, hate! Almost all of Xander's issues, pain, flaws get dealt with off screen. I wanna see him deal with them on screen!

However, I love that they were there in the first place and that we can fanwank the whole thing to Xander keeping his feelings of hurt and anger inside and never letting them out. Makes a lot of great Xander fanfic.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

I hate with passion that we've never seen Xander deal with Jesse's death,

I think this one gets me the most out of all the ones you mention. Also, his reaction to Anya's death is handled so poorly, IMO. I know it was the last episode so they didn't have a lot of time, but it just did not do justice to their relationship.

However, I love that they were there in the first place

And I love how mature he is in S7!

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I hate that Giles wasn't in Xander's wedding. It's Xander's wedding, Giles!! It's so sad how Xander never had an adult that really cared about him.

I do love Giles' return in Two To Go. It was so unexpected that I'd jumped with joy when I first watched it.

[gryfndor-godess.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it shocks me that Giles missed the wedding. I suppose I can understand why he would because of logistics, but IIRC, he's not even mentioned in "Hell's Bells" and they surely could have had a line about how he had sent a card or was sorry for not being able to come, etc.

It's so sad how Xander never had an adult that really cared about him.

Agreed.